| | S4 - THE ROBERT LAZAR STORY TAPE 2 -- SIDE A Q: Question L: Lazar L: ... happened like that to me. This was sometime later, about a month later I had, I mean, unbelievable amounts of blood in my urine. Q: I missed the set-up for this... this was after... I'm sorry, you probably just said this, they made you drink something? L: It was a little plastic cup... this is part of the allergy test, but this was, you know, drink it! Q: How soon after did you collapse? L: When I got home. It was also extremely hot that day. Gene's air conditioner wasn't working in his car and I had seen so much and been through so much, I really honestly didn't think too much about it. 'Cause I was dying of heat stroke, anyway, driving around in his car. I just drank a lot of fluids and went to sleep, but sometime later, I had a lot of kidney problems after that. Which, it may have been a mere coincidence, but I've never had any medical problem, ever, I've never even been to the hospital... and after that, from then on, I've had wierd kidney problems. I've always blamed it on that. It might be a coincidence. Q: This was the day that Bob saw the disc for the first time... L: No... this is still the second day. Q: Oh, I'm sorry. The third day you saw the disc. L: The third day. Q: You didn't stay over night though, you kept flying back each time? L: Correct. Q: So day three... that's pretty early... L: Now this isn't three days from when... Q: But over a period of time... L: Yeah, but now we're coming up on three weeks from when I first... Q: So you're free to just go back to your normal... L: Right. Q: You're still not doing work assignments yet. L: No, not yet. On day three was a different story. Day three I came in. One of the hangar doors was open and I didn't drive around the back of the building as normal... we stopped out front... Q: You're on this bus every time? L: Every time. It's the only way you can come and go. Q: And they still had the guard. L: Always... he was always standing in front of me. Q: You're still almost alone every time or there's more people? L: No, that was the only time there was ever anyone else. From then on it was always Dennis and I. Q: In the back of this huge bus? L: Yeah. Q: That's great actually. L: So, we stopped, instead of making the turn as normal, and got out and the hangar is... literally this craft is sitting inside of the hangar... Q: With the door open? L: Oh, yeah, the door's wide open. Q: You're still making small talk... he's not talking about a disc? L: No, now he is. Now... he knew about it before... 'cause before we got on the bus he said, I want to show you what you're going to be working on and I said, great, and we got out of the bus and this is when that all ran through my mind... I said, this is the secret fighter of the future is what we're working on. So on and so forth. We came in the hangar in the entrance, walked around it, and this is the first time that we picked up, what I call, parasitic guards, that just are walking, and as you walk by they just attach themselves along side of you. Q: Did they speak to you ever? L: Yeah, they did. They asked me to keep my eyes forward and walk directly to the door on the right. If the entrance was here... on the very back here there would be a door... actually this way... that goes to a corridor and I was walking here and he said, keep your eyes forward and enter in that door on the back. And I did. Now Dennis disappeared. Maybe because I didn't turn around. As I went back, I purposely came really close to this, so I could slide my hand on the belly of the disc, feeling that it was cold, just to see what it felt like. Q: Did it feel like normal metal to you... nothing special? L: It was cold, so I thought it was metal. And to this day I still don't know... it felt metallic. Q: What were you thinking? L: Uhh... that this is the fighter of the future. That we're working on. Q: Ahh... bene! L: Oh, absolutely, no question about it. Q: And you were probably really excited, because you were going to be part of this really exciting... L: Right. For one brief second, as I came by, the disc was rotated... the door was on this angle... as I was coming out, to the door here, was the first time I got to look inside and there were three or four people inside and I looked up, inside there, and it was the first time I registered how small the seats were inside. And it was the only thing that didn't make sense to me... Q: But it still didn't occur to you that it might be aliens? L: No, but it was odd. It stood out in my mind. There was nothing that looked normal inside. There was no... I'd seen the insides of fire aircraft plenty of times... everything in the military looks exactly the same, whether you're inside a tank or an F16... (LAUGHTER) L: ... they're all... but it looked different inside. There was nothing in there... and then I just thought, well, maybe they weren't seats, maybe they were something else. The thing's not finished being built, or whatever. It just blew off the top of my head, in either case. So I went in, again, into the briefing room. Dennis met me there... we went inside... now there's a lot of briefings to read. He said I'm going to leave you here for about an hour and then I want you to go in with Barry again and maybe we're going to have you start doing something... so this is when I began to read it. This was a different briefing room this time. And this was I think the first time I saw the "They're Here" poster. Q: It just has a saucer and says "They're Here" on it. L: It has it hovering right outside, if you were to look right outside the hangar door, just the drylake bed, and it just says, "They're Here" ... there's nothing else... no other wording... and it's a regular lithograph poster. And I kind of thought that was funny. But still it reinforced my idea that this was what everyone had mistaken for flying saucers. Q: What about the briefings this time... the files...? L: These were extensive... these really contained just about everything. Q: You still thought this was our... L: Well, after seeing the poster, it was already seeded in my mind that something was... that now something was strange. And immediately, when I picked up the briefings, I don't really remember what I got into immediately, but it was all back engineering, so on and so forth, and this was the first mention of an alien craft. Q: Did they use the word "alien"? L: Yeah. Q: So, if we had to pick a moment, that was the moment that you really knew? L: Right. That was the first time. Immediately after that, I don't remember how it was worded, but they went right from that to gravity propulsion and that rings a bell... and that says it all there... there is no gravity propulsion system. And from there, they're talking about the reaction and it was one after another, and that really changed my line of thought on everything. Q: What did you feel? You're sitting in the room alone with one other person... L: No, no one. There's no one else. Q: And now you know that right outside the door is... L: Right, this was a completely different feeling. It was... I reread the same paragraph over, I think, a couple times... because I, I don't know if you do this, but when you find something interesting, you just become excited and purposely start skipping to see if there's a punchline at the end... or what else... if there's drawings or pictures or anything... and so I found myself skipping more, so I go and reread it again, just to see, in case you missed a word. Somewhere... of some importance... like... The following is... just a joke. (LAUGHTER) L: But there was no such thing like that and it was a very... I'd say exciting, at that point, almost... it's so hard for me to put it in words. It's almost like you're kidding. This is not possible. I guess until it finally soaked in a little and I proceeded on... and then began to read some of the lab notes and I think the next briefing I picked up was the notes from the guys that were working on the reactor. And that's really when it hit me because it talked about, there were notes at the end, after their entries had stopped, they had died from the tests and that's kind of when it took on a serious note. Very shortly after that is when Dennis came in and I went in with Barry and that's when we first started... Q: You had to have been in a really stunned state of mind, but, I'll tell you, when I happened to see this UFO I saw, I was basically underwhelmed by the whole thing. L: No, I wasn't underwhelmed. Q: You were quite taken with it. That's why, they called me at specific times, that's why I really felt that they had to have been watching me. Q: Was there a mirror in the room? L: No. Right after they had taken me out of there, right after I finished that briefing, I went in with Barry and Barry was much more laid back... talkative... made me feel much more at ease, type of guy... and it was... I don't remember what he said, but something along the lines of... you feel like you're in the "Twilight Zone", don't ya? And we were able to converse like that... more or less alone, so he said, well, let me show you what we've got... basically from the briefings did you read so and so... and I said, all I've read is that this is an alien craft from another planet and we're trying to find out what makes it work? And he said, that's where we are. Let me show you what we've got. And that's it. That was the first time it was actually laid out for me as a confirmation, he said, and that's when we started talking about my specific job. He said, what we deal with... Q: Can I stop you for a second? L: Yeah. Q: Was Barry about your age or a contemporary of yours in some way? L: Ahh... he was a little older than me. About five years. Q: You felt that he had a similar background or something? L: Yeah. Q: So he was just a scientist as well. L: Yeah, but a lack one. Not a regimented... yeah. And he basically, very nonchalantly said, let me show you what we've got. Our specific project, which you know is called Galileo, is going to deal specifically with the propulsion system and its power source and that's it. And, speaking of which, this is the reactor, these are the amplifiers and this is what we're dealing with and then, of course, we took a few minutes and then went into a conversation about everything. And this is where I learned a lot about how everything connects together. He said, there are other projects and it was really just rehashing things continuously. No matter what we talked about, I'd come back with, this is from another planet? Yes. Okay, and we'd go on. (LAUGHTER) Q: How long had Barry been in the program? L: Oh, it seems like a long time. Because he knew the guys that were killed. So that had to be... Q: Five years... ten years... Q: Did he ever say how long they'd had this craft? L: No. That I never knew. I think I even asked that to Barry and he didn't know. Q: Where it came from? L: Where it came from it was... it was both told by Barry and, in the briefings, that it was from the Zeta Reticuli star system, as if I was supposed to know where that was... when I came on, I started looking through all the star maps and it's thirty light years away... southern hemisphere sky... Q: It's still in our galaxy? L: That's in the Milky Way galaxy, yeah. Q: How did they actually acquire it? L: I don't know. I say I don't think it was a crash retrieval. Because it was not damaged. Q: In any of these memos at any time was there an inkling that there was some cooperation between these guys and the government? L: Yeah, and I find that so hard to believe... that is just beyond... Q: It's not our job to believe it... L: I know... I'm just saying, I find that so difficult to believe that... there again, I... Q: To tell you the truth, from an objective point of view, it's not that tough... the event itself, not for me but for our viewership, it will be tough to believe as it was for you at first, but you had to work on that saucer which it's hard to believe is the one thing you didn't see... which is... L: Right, I'm saying, because I was exposed to the actual hardware and got to deal with it, it makes everything else much more difficult for me to believe now. Q: Where did it first mention the aliens referring to us as containers that they genetically altered... L: In the reports... Q: But before this particular... L: No... that's later on. Q: The chronology makes perfect sense... the last thing they'd do is show him aliens calling us containers before they really had him working on the ship. But... what was the nature of the briefing that suggested there was cooperation? Did they just lay it out... the aliens were there... we were there... and they gave us this ship and we had to give them... L: No... I was going to say it was like an accident report... but it was kind of on the forms that you would see that... that apparently there was a conflict at some time that dealt with munitions there were carried by guards... Q: On the base... L: On the base... and... Q: And were there grays... do they call him grays or do they call them kids... or what do they call them? L: They were referred to as... no one ever called them "the grays"... that's what they call them in UFO lore... they were referred to as the kids... or, one time, someone I remember -- Barry or Dennis -- referred to them as gourds... Q: Gourds... L: Gourds like, you know, those things on Halloween. That was the only reference to them, but at one time there was supposedly some cooperation taking place and there was a conflict started that dealt with the munitions being carried by the guards. Q: A section of S4 guards walked in with munitions they weren't supposed to have? Is that it? L: Yeah, from what I can understand there was a place where... I've tried to make sense out of this before where it was either an area where there were actual live aliens doing something... what they were doing there... cooperating or... I mean, they were physically there doing... or just alive standing there in the room, but they were not permitted to carry... I don't know if it was the bullets themselves that contained an explosive mixture... Q: The guards were not permitted by the aliens to enter... L: No... they just were not permitted to enter that area and maybe it was for the guards' sake... maybe something would set them off... maybe there was some wierd fields in use or maybe aliens didn't want guards in there... I mean, to me, this is an impossible set of circumstances... but, apparently one of them did enter and then a conflict broke out and the bottom line was the guards died. And that was the last entry that had anything to do with cooperation between the two. Q: Did they say how many guards died? L: Yeah, they did and I can't remember. There were a lot. There were more than you think you could hide with telling people... well, a bunch of people died... Q: You had told me forty-four at one time... L: Yeah, it was an unusual number... you can't imagine that forty people can be killed and there not be a news story about it. Which is another thing that rang in my mind... it just didn't sound right. How can you hide the deaths of forty-four people. Q: You had mentioned one to me that the guards... they were telling you about the guards and they said that these guards are orphans... that they have no traceable family... blah... blah... blah... L: Yeah, I think that was Barry and after I read his report this is what I was questioning him about. Q: What did Barry say? L: Yeah... Barry came in and said, well, yeah a lot of these guards are handpicked that work down here... they have no connections to family and stuff like that... and that's kind of when a discussion started, well, it doesn't matter, you can't hide forty-four people being killed. It's just not possible. Q: What did Barry say about that? L: I really don't remember. I think it was more like... well, whatever... now, we've got to get back to doing this... it was just kind of side-stepping because neither of us knew for sure what was going on... 'cause it seemed like just the same briefing I did. Q: Let me ask you something subtle about that. Does Barry skip the issue because he knows it's a hot issue that could be nothing but trouble or does he skip the issue because he doesn't know and just wants to talk about work? L: How am I suppose to know the answer to that? Q: You couldn't tell? L: No... Q: He wasn't a guy who seemed scared by talking about it? L: No... he seemed very at ease with everything, though he did relate to me that at the beginning it was just as unusual as it was for me, even more so because when he first started there was no one he could talk to... so that's why I always firmly believed that... Q: Was he married? L: He never did say. He never said where he lived either. Though I had a feeling Barry didn't leave. I had a feeling that he had an on base... Q: Was he a happy guy? L: Oh, yeah, Barry was a happy guy. Q: That's interesting. I almost picture the poor guy as a prisoner of what he knows. If he doesn't leave... L: No... you can really get into that... I mean, even with the oppressive security... I mean, I felt really privileged... it was neat to be in on a secret like that... I mean, after I found out we were dealing with alien craft... you felt really cool and began to look down on other people... Q: The ultimate Lions Club... L: Right. Right. It was something... it was certainly worth putting up with. Q: This is so fascinating. Q: What time's your flight, by the way, because we can go on forever and ever... Q: Well, one thing would be a question of just getting tired of talking that's why we expected you to come out for a day or two and continue when... Q: My flight's like around nine o'clock. L: Some water... are you getting tired? Q: No, not at all. Are you? L: No, it doesn't matter to me. Q: Do you have any sense of this event happening two decades ago or two years ago with these guys getting killed? L: Not two decades ago. I'm relatively sure that the installation... that particular S4 installation was built after '76... Q: So they didn't have this craft before '76? L: Almost positively not... Q: So they built S4 because they had a craft? L: Yes. Q: That's cool. So S4 was all about... how many of these crafts? L: Well there are nine total. Q: Nine doors that are all connected all... L: Well, see inside the hangars... Q: That's wild... it's like a car show... L: That's exactly what it is... a car show room... though they were all the same... they all fit... the hangars were all the same size... there are bay doors that open like this to the outside, but there are also big garage type doors that open this way... and one of the times I went in all the doors were open and you could see all the way down through the hangars... Q: All the ships? L: Yeah... and they were all different kinds, but I could never walk past... I mean the line of death was on the other side of the disc... Q: That's fascinating... so there were parasitic guards at every hangar... so there were dozens of guards... L: There were red lines on the ground... marking lines... Q: What uniforms did these guys wear? L: They were the desert kind... Desert Storm camouflage... Q: The gray desert kind. Q: And did these guys have a sense of... they'd been there awhile so... even though they're tough guards... they chat with each other, chew gum and hang around... or are they like outside the Queen's Palace and they're quiet all the time. L: No... they're quiet all the time. Q: So this is dead serious... at attention kind of guys? L: Ahh... pretty much so... but I was convinced that they had no idea that these were alien craft. These guys thought like what I did when I first walked in... just like they were guarding a secret fighter. Q: I've spent so much time seeing this one design, the idea of being in a position to show that shot you just described... which is like... wow... do you have enough of a recollection of the shapes or general appearance... L: Oh, yeah. Q: So you've got sketches of everything? L: Well, that's when I made up the names for them. Q: So we have sketches of all of them? Q: I'm working on most of them... the Jello Mold, the Sport... Q: Will they be in this detail... this accuracy... or is this the one you worked on? L: No, this is the one I worked on... the other ones are from 200 feet away. Q: But, still, you can get the silhouette right, even... L: Yeah, the silhouettes the only thing... Q: That's all we care about... that's all we need, that's all I want... L: I mean they look nothing like you would think... they look ridiculous... one looks exactly like a Jello Mold... the ones that you... you know, the Jello molds with the hole in the middle and it has all the variations like that... exactly... it looks like a giant... Q: Does it have portals on it? L: No... it was a solid... it was a flying Jello Mold... it was ridiculous looking... that's why I said this is the Sport Model... this is the only thing that looks like anything I'd want to own... everything else just looks like kitchen hardware... Q: That's wild. What was the smallest one, you remember? L: I don't know... I even judged this one... I always said it was thirty feet in diameter, which made no sense at all, because after we scoped everything out it was fifty feet and once you go to a hundred feet away... I have no idea how big anything was... so... they all fit inside... they are all approximately the same size... there wasn't like a two hundred foot one. I'd say they're all about the size of a house... well, my kind of house. (LAUGHTER) Q: I'm getting out of chronology to a great extent here, but I want to jump around for a couple more minutes... I've got questions I've been dying to ask you... this one issue was sketchy or like an accident report, we know there were x number of men down... does it say how they were found? L: Yeah... they had all died of head wounds. Q: Did they say how severe? L: No... they specified head wounds... I think was the only word... Q: And there was no date on these? L: Nothing... zip... nothing. Q: Why the hell would they give you these... this is what blows my mind. L: I have no idea. Why would they tell me the origin of the craft... your questions are my questions. Q: Why give anybody this information about these forty-four guys... but I can believe anything from the military... Q: Well, as you mentioned... even the origin of the craft... you're dealing with a super heavy element... from a binary star system... L: Right... it might have something to do with what you're talking about... but what would specifically... Q: Were there any other memos regarding cooperation? L: No... Q: So, really this was the only memo that even suggested that... L: It wasn't a memo... it was like... it was like an accident report... you know how you fill out for an insurance form your version of what happened... it was a handwritten account from someone... Q: Oh, it was handwritten... oh, really... fill in the blanks type... L: It was a big white area of paper with printed text underneath and it says... occurrence was as follows, colon and then you... Q: Oh, like a tax form... L: Right an alien tax form... (LAUGHTER) L: Alien attack occurred on this date... right. Q: You just check them off... What government form could possibly cover stuff like that? L: It stated on it... it was like an incident report... I called it an accident, but... it was an unusual incident form... I don't know... but it was something like that... Q: That's what I call an understatement... (LAUGHTER) Q: Was this also the time that you saw autopsies of the aliens... Q: Yeah, there was their artifacts... in plastic... L: No, that was later on, but in subsequent times after that I was looking through there and seeing specifically what they looked like. Q: So was there a... L: And I have a feeling that the only reason that there could have been, other than to alleviate some curiosity, is they felt, maybe because they were getting nowhere, we found later on that everything in the disc is related to everything else... there is nothing there for, you know, aesthetic reasons, everything seems to rely on something... so they were, I think, stretching far beyond thinking that where these guys came from might have to do with how you start the craft... so they were covering just a wide... Q: They probably had gotten to the point where they were exhausted... they hadn't gotten anywhere... they're bringing in new blood and they just said, fuck it... L: They reduced the amount of information... I never even saw what I think would be more beneficial... why would I have seen an autopsy report and not a metallurgical report? And I never saw anything from the people that dealt with the metallurgy of the craft... this had to be a military line of thinking because it made no sense whatsoever... (LAUGHTER) Q: (UNCLEAR)... one of the reasons why I have what I call the "Aha" effect... the effect -- how it would happen, if that makes sense, is it reminds me of one of my favorite fictions which is the end of the first "Raiders of the Lost Arc" where they've gotten the arc and they have it in a box and there's a big matte shot at the end showing them wheeling it... the government finally takes the arc away from Indiana Jones and they show them wheeling it away to this huge warehouse where it will obviously be lost forever and that kind of sludge like governmental thinking is what I'm sure where the level of departmentalization and paranoia is ever going to keep anybody from cooperating or getting the information that might be able to solve this... it's why I can imagine they'd have this thing since '76 and still be lost... L: Yeah, that is the reality. That really does happen... the way they think. It's their own security measures, their own precautions... if you want to call it that... that just destroy any chance you have of accomplishing anything. Q: How is Barry still happy in that situation? L: I don't know. Q: See what I'm saying? 'Cause I'd think if it's been on earth for years, the guy would have to be half nuts for not being able to do it right. L: I don't know. Maybe he got to work on other crafts... maybe he got to do other things... maybe he worked for other groups that were making progress. Q: He befriended the system... the system is your friend and it takes care of him and he takes care of the system... it makes perfect sense... L: Maybe it was his life... I mean, if you, people really get into... you probably haven't been around physicists... but, for the most part, people that are the most brilliant... the most brilliant ones have tunnel vision, whatever their interest is... there really can be no one else in existence that knows more about it than they do. That is their life. They are complete morons outside of that field of knowledge. Q: Idiot savant. L: Yeah, they walk around in a daze... they have nothing... it is their life and when they are involved in it... they are completely happy. And if you take them out... even when they leave work, they walk around like zombies. I saw them all the time at Los Alamos... they just seem displaced. And, if in fact Barry had no wife or girlfriend, and he lived out at the base... I may have been seeing him in that environment, because I have seen other people like that, who just... this is their goal... your goal is to find out how this works... okay, you know... END OF TAPE 2 -- SIDE A TAPE 2 -- SIDE B Q: ... were you full time at this point... L: No, no, I never made it to fulltime. Q: How many times a week did you go out? L: Once or twice... well, no, not even twice... well, yeah, there was a sporadic time in there. It was about once or twice a week. Q: That's a really wierd life style. So you would go from... if I was only to film, which is my obsession, once or twice a week and then, the rest of the time, I was not allowed to talk about it... I'd go bananas... L: Yeah, that's what happens. Well, he even told me, you're not going to become productive until you're on full time... so, just try and bear with us... Q: And the reason why you weren't on full time was... L: I don't know. Q: Were there outstanding investigations or...? L: There might have been. Q: What's life like at home now on these down days? Do you not know what to do with yourself? L: Pretty much so... it was really strange. Q: Did you find yourself, this is a personal thing, but did you find yourself drinking more... or... L: I just didn't do anything. I wound up on the days off driving out that way. Q: That's cool. L: That was when I did lie to my wife and say, I've got to go to work tonight, and I'd go out and just drive out near the area... I didn't want to get stopped by the cops... I didn't want to do anything... so I'd just drive... and I'd take tremendous drives all the way up through Tonapop (sp?), which is two hundred and fifty, three hundred miles, and come all the way around the other side of the state and come back down in the morning. I was just orbiting the area, just so I could... I don't know what I was doing... Q: You were probably getting obsessed with the work over there. L: Well, it was more than a fascination... it was... well... maybe they're going to be flying it or something. I just wanted to be around there and... Q: What about your friends? You just can't talk to anybody at this time? Except for Barry. L: Right. Q: Were you? L: Oh yeah... a hundred percent. Q: You weren't telling a close male friend either? L: No... not yet. Q: Was life at home kind of shitty and that's another reason you were getting out of the house? L: Yeah... well, it was getting wierd because of the absence every once in awhile... so my wife countered with absence. Q: Was she supposed to be working someplace? L: Taking flying lessons. Q: Something's up in your personal life at this point in general and the absences in the marriage are starting to fill space. Don't let me romanticize you... is the nature of your fascination the fun of solving this propulsion problem or... L: No. Q: What was it? L: The fact that it was an alien spacecraft... Q: Well, that's great... because that's the most romantic thing for all of us... the most exciting emotion, I should say. L: I mean I had no idea, after I left at night, if things weren't coming and going from other planets... I just had no idea... I just was thrown out into a different world... so that's why I felt like I had to keep an eye on what was going on. Though, I never did see anything. Q: I have to confess that when I... I have a very active imagination... that's why I do what I do... and I actually scare myself when I write... I do... Alfred Hitchcock used to say that all the time... I literally in writing will go too far and live in my head too long on a particular subject... were you ever... were there ever negative feelings... there's an excitement over this alien thing... is there ever literally a fear of an alien thing? L: Well, the day I walked into the disc. Q: The day you walked into it... oh, inside. L: Yeah... that was a non-exciting, very ominous... Q: It's interesting because when you first glimpsed inside you were very excited... although you knew it was odd... L: Right... it was odd. But this is after absorbing... all the work I had been doing was in the lab... Q: On paper... L: Yeah, on paper... dealing with some components, but separated. Q: Was there stuff from the ship sitting in your lab? L: Yeah... that's what we were working on. Q: Stuff that was cut out. Q: How big was it? L: Well, some of it's big... the amplifiers themselves were about two feet in diameter... four feet long... the reactor was about this big... Q: This is a whole other meeting, but when we get into scenes like that, we're going to have to get into, before we get a draft, sketches... Not that I want the script to be a blueprint or set dressing... but I want the brief description to be accurate. (SOUNDS AS THOUGH MACHINE WAS TURNED OFF AND BACK ON) Q: ... when they were flying these saucers around... to your knowledge. L: You know, I never noticed. It might have been right there, but at the moment... (LAUGHTER) L: ... I really wasn't looking around. Q: That might be a license I take to... L: I imagine they would have. Q: 'Cause doing these kind of effects with a live video hasn't been done and would help it look real instead of looking like NBC'S "Abudctions" the TV show or something and doing things with handheld cameras and stuff... there's some really cool techniques there I've decided to try that really would work just for this and not... science fiction... we've seen all that real glossy Spielberg-ie approach to this and I would like to do the slightly more disturbing reality version of it... Q: You actually, during the flight tests, you could hear the pilot or operator speaking? L: No, I could hear the guy who was sitting next to me communicating with the pilot. So I could hear half the conversation with headphones on... well, I had a headphone on... it was one of those... and he was... Q: Sitting outside? L: No... sitting right inside. Q: Sitting on the grass out front watching... Q: No... inside the hangar with the door open... L: Inside the hangar. Q: So they're in the hangar looking out the open garage door. L: Yeah. And it was just before it lifted off the ground... is when I had gotten in there and I heard some talking but I hadn't locked on to what he was saying. But the first thing I heard him say was Oma Prime Configuration Confirmed and right after that the disc lifted off the ground. Q: What's the nature of its movement... what was the lift off like? L: It was slow and uneventful... it just lifted as if it was... Q: Like a helicopter or something? L: Yeah... but there was no noise other than just there was a slight red under the craft right from the second hump on here... it was a blue corona discharge... just a high voltage glow... Q: Constant? L: Yeah constant. Q: All the way to the ground? L: No, just off the bottom of the disc... it was a loud, not loud, but a noticeable hiss and it dissipated very quickly... only about thirty or fifty... Q: We need to get this stuff exactly right and we're going to sell tickets based on that if nothing else... they're going to see the real deal. Q: We'll get it right like guys do police work on a victim... although the CD stuff is too expensive, we could get a photo shot and get it right. Q: Actually I've got a full CD system already punching away on a whole series of tests of this right now... Q: We can own a toaster or something that we don't have to pay time on that we can just keep showing... Q: No, I have a full cinemagraphics... Q: You can be toying around with (UNCLEAR -- too many people overlapping dialogue)... until he says... that's what I saw exactly. Q: I've got a series of flythrus that we're replicating the test flight... L: It really didn't do anything exotic... it lifted up once to the left and to the right... Q: Was it doing this stuff... or was it smooth? L: It was pretty much smooth, but it wasn't digital... Q: The one I saw moved digitally as it left. It was just still. It may not have been this deal at all. But it looked a lot like it. L: The tests we saw later on from far away... it was tremendous digital moves. Q: Well, that's it... this is what excited me so much about it... because when I saw it fifteen years ago no one was talking about this stuff, so I wasn't projecting shit... and I saw the thing go... and stop dead again like a wasp... I thought I saw an airplane coming towards me... which is so stupid... and this it goes.... and I said, it's not an airplane coming towards me... and then it goes... I was in the mountains, so I could see the entire Salt Lake Valley with this German guy and this thing goes ZIPPPP and it was really gone. It was gone like a flashlight moves... like it had no physics... L: Right. Q: Like there was no physics to deal with whatsoever. L: Right... that's exactly how it moves. Q: So I bet you I saw some maneuvers that we were doing. Or maybe I saw some real... L: Who knows who was in there. Q: Suddenly I got my "abduction experience"... Q: That's when you got the first implant. Q: I've got a whole sequence of video tape for you of it lifting off the ground and doing things and flying around, but the one thing I never asked was the test flight at night... twilight or day? L: It was twilight. Q: Perfect. Magic Hour. Q: We call it Magic Hour. Q: That's great. Describe this incident for me. This little lift off... you were inside... L: It was going on and Dennis came in and got Barry and I and said come on there's a test flight going on... I want Bob to see it. Q: Were you surprised that there were such things as test flights at that time? L: No. Q: You'd heard there was. L: Yeah. Q: Who told you? L: Well, in the briefings... Q: That alone is another piece of startling information to me... when you first heard that there were... L: Yeah, like when I said after there were amplifiers and a reactor... it was one thing after another... it was kind of an avalanche... Q: Yeah. Were they test flying all of them or just the Sport? L: Just this model. Q: So, they rolled it out. L: They could have flown it out... they could have towed it out... I really have no idea how it got out, but it was out there and it hadn't been... Q: What did you feel when you saw that? L: Oh, it was... it was great anticipation for it to take off, but it was strange, because I think at the exact moment it left the ground, I wasn't looking at it... I was noticing the frequency on the transceiver... that it was around 200 mega hertz, which I thought was odd, I thought... I didn't think it was possible to communicate on a standard frequency with something that's bending... working with the gravity amplifier... and, when I looked back over, waiting for the thing to... it was already lifting off the ground. It was inconceivable to me... Q: You didn't hear anything? L: No... I was just mesmerized. I only heard the hiss after I looked at it... 'cause I thought it was just a random noise from somewhere, but it wasn't even anything noticeable and it just stood there in the air... it was big just to be standing... it should not be floating, I guess... Q: Did it lift off slowly... kind of like that and then just keep going up... or did it kind of jump up for a bit and stop? L: No, it was an acceleration... a very slow and then stopped like that. Q: Okay. Not much of an ease out and then a little bit of a dip after it stopped. L: Right. Q: Just like that. L: Yeah, just as if you'd made a correction... Q: Yeah, yeah. Q: I think showing it doing corrections is another thing... it's literally new in cinema... I don't want to make everything such a big goddamn deal but... there's a regular person flying this thing at this point. L: Yeah, but it absolutely did not do one of those... Q: When it moved sideways... did it tip and move? L: Yeah, it tipped. Q: So thus the idea of rolling down hill... L: Yeah, after I saw what they were doing, I... Q: So, it kind of has this almost walking (?) look to it... L: Well, it will as they come into density in the grounds... at different gravitational levels it'll... it looks ridiculous when it's flying... but I guess none of that is perceptible inside. Q: That's fabulous. I'm in to demystifying this and making them look ridiculous but will a level of optical effects where you are sure what you're seeing is real... L: It's not... I mean that's exaggerated... Q: But no, but to show that there's a dip in the ground and when it hits there it mirrors it. L: Well, it's not necessarily a dip in the terrain... it would be the density underneath. Q: Of the atmosphere? L: No, of the ground itself. Q: Oh, I see. Q: The gravity strength... L: The density is... like is you're over sand as compared to bedrock... when you go to bedrock, you're going to get a bump. Q: That's wild. L: Because the gravity's proportional to... Q: How long's this flight you watched? Seconds... minutes? L: A couple minutes. Q: Was this Wednesday night? L: Yeah. Q: All test flights were Wednesday nights. L: Yeah. Q: Was the ground... the dust underneath it moving? Did it disturb the ground? L: There was the slightest bit... and I don't think it was from that... I think it was from the updraft... of it moving up... it just sucked up... and then it fell back down... but there was no wierd swirling while it was in the air... it just came back down... Q: To your knowledge could a person walk under it? Did you ever see that happen? L: I never saw that happen. I can't imagine what would happen if you walked under it... I heard specifically, as if someone had done it, because Barry told me that if you walk under it you can see only the sky above it. Because of the way the amplifiers work, they're bending the light around it so if you stand here and look above it... you can only see the clouds, cause your vision... Q: That's just the kind of thing that in the final script I would love... 'cause it's a lie to you, but you've heard it, it's the kind of thing I would love to do in the movie... something... L: No, it makes perfect sense... Q: Something that you've heard happen... that's as far a stretch as I would make in a movie like this... is something you can say... alright, I didn't do that, but I know that's what it does. That to me is very exciting, to show... L: Well, see I saw demonstrations like that with the amplifier in the lab so I know that is probably what happens. Q: Do you know how to dramatize something like that? I don't know if it's with his character or another character 'cause there's always the opportunity to put other... were there other green scientists coming in at different points on this? L: Not that I know of... and there were only 22 in total. Q: To just have a character watching it fly... if we end up being able to do this... and walk forward and have some anxiety like... the reason I ask that question is it's not that far off the ground. What would happen... we've already established that guys have died doing this... if one scientist or observer gets a little carried away and starts to walk closer and someone else is... hey, what... we don't know what is going to happen... that's Hollywood... but that's dramatizing it without a big lie. Because there can be a sense... if your character's watching someone walk under it... of wait... what's going to happen... and we go to that character's POV and see the sky appear... it explains a lot of things about flying saucers, which is how do they get away with their being around and you don't see them all the time. You know, and that's startling. L: Well, it depends on the vantage point... but you don't know what'll happen... I don't know what'll happen if you walk directly under the locus of the amplifier... is it like walking into a column (?) are you crashed or does nothing happen at all. That I really don't know. Q: I have to assume a certain percentage of sightings are real... to some extent I'm like you... if I read about "abductions" I start to feel like car sick, I can't quite get a handle on it at all. To think about all the hovering these things supposedly do if it killed anybody underneath it... there'd be a lot of reports of crushed people. L: Right. And, in fact, Barry telling the story that that's what you'd see underneath, it almost makes me think someone did that. Q: I would think if anything you just would incur the discharge from the high voltage. L: Well, if you're on top of it... if you touch it... but when it's that high up in the air, I don't think... Q: It would be like the cyclotrons almost... Q: But that discharge disappears three feet after it takes off. L: Yeah, that's probably it's proximity to the ground... Q: Okay, that was the first time you saw a saucer go... how long were you at this job before you got pulled off? Roughly. L: I don't know. Q: Under a year. L: Yeah. Q: Under three months? L: Five months, maybe. Q: Well, it was December of '88 to April '89... L: Yeah... thank you. Q: How often did you see these flights? Were you allowed to see them all the time? L: No that was the only one I was allowed to see. Q: So that was the wildest thing you saw a saucer do? L: No... then there were times outside... after I had seen the test flight schedule... that I went to see on my own. Q: And that was taking a risk each time? L: Oh, yeah. Q: This is great stuff. L: That's when I saw the most amazing... Q: What was the most amazing thing you saw? L: That was probably when I had other people out there... when Jim and Gene... Q: This was after the shit hit the fan... L: Yeah, we saw a neat test and it was... I mean... it was flying everywhere. It was really neat. Q: Same one... just the Sport Model?
L: Yeah. Q: And you were now on the outskirts of the base hiding? Watching? L: Yeah... laying out in the desert. Q: How many miles away... can you guess? L: We were thirteen miles from there. Q: And on a hill so you were overlooking it, or something? L: No... there's the mountain range and it comes up over the mountain range and we were laying out in the desert. Q: So you got a kind of low angle view... L Right. Q: And what did it do? Was it doing all the step stuff? L: It came up and made wierd moves and blasted to the left and blasted to the right and then at some point... Q: Night time? L: Yeah. Q: Was it lit up... how did it look at night? L: Oh it glows. It works almost like a fluorescent tube with the amount of energy that's on the craft... what you're doing is ionizing the air around it... they really can't avoid that... Q: How the hell... that's why everyone sees them all the time. L: Yeah, unfortunately, that's just the way it's going to be. Q: You're seeing the air, not the craft. They're seeing the ionized air... they're never seeing the craft. Q: That's interesting... this is fascinating... 'cause I've always read accounts saying like this ball of fire... ball of light... and it's always blown my mind 'cause there's metal in there... but the metal has to disappear so we're seeing the ionized air. L: Yeah, it doesn't disappear it's just an envelope around it... electrons are screaming off there and they hit... Q: What color is it? L: It's a sodium yellow color... almost like yellow street lights. Q: Does it get red or anything... does it change color at all? L: I didn't see it do that... it gets brighter or dimmer but I didn't see it change color. Q: How long was that flight approximately? L: That was quite awhile. Q: Many minutes. L: Yeah. Q: That must have been really fun. L: Yeah, because everyone had seen it... that was a great relief. That was finally when I had... Q: Now... let's go back 'cause I've jumped so far... what got you from that first flight to being in a position of watching this with friends out there? L: Well, that's a lot of stuff happening. Q: Well, take it a little bit at a time... we don't have to finish it all today. Let's just pick it up with... after you saw that first flight, were you now into... I think it's ultimately going to be our job, I'm not going to worry too much about it right now, but I think ultimately it's going to be our job to find a simplified way of depicting the problem you were working on. And this is something that will be hard to do and will take probably a lot of your help on the specific dialogue... was there one... like was there a math problem that you were dealing with the entire time? And was there a break through that you came to or was it just generally working with your team? What was the nature of it? L: No, it wasn't a math problem... it was... the first thing was identifying... we had focused mainly on the reactor... and it was identifying (UNCLEAR -- sounds as though machine was moved).... was number one. Q: So we're trying to find out... you had this... the fuel sample?\ L: Yeah. Q: So you were essentially analyzing this fuel sample. L: Right. Which was my contribution to the project because we did find out what it was. Q: That's really great for us... because... was there a break through moment of victory? L: Yeah... pretty much so. Q: That's fabulous... I mean I really couldn't make this story up any better to be perfectly honest. Can I get a sense of team spirit? How many people were on this? L: Two. Me and Barry. Q: Shortly afterwards the Soviets were involved in the program... was it then that they were asked to leave the base? L: No, something else had happened. It had nothing to do with our project. But I know, from what they told me, the Soviets were involved at some point and there was some other really major breakthrough... something with the craft... and after that the Soviets were never permitted back there. They were never given the information either. Q: We must know some exciting stuff about this goddamn thing by now then. L: I would imagine so. Q: Barry had been working on it for years? L: Well, maybe, maybe he was working on other projects. Q: Well, let's put it like this... was there a sense from Barry that when you guys made this breakthrough, that you concerned your contribution of great relief... that the problem had seemed unsolvable? L: It was a big deal... but not that big of a deal. Not... oh, everything's easier now. Q: Did you hear what I said about European films... that this is the problem... and this is your challenge and this is the most exciting thing you've ever worked on... there is a way... I'm sure... of dramatizing this event. Q: What was the key to discovering it? Was it just luck and persistence or... how did you come across what it finally was? Is it possible to put on these tapes?
L: Yeah, it was simple tests, really. Just simple steps that they hadn't done. Q: Was it an angle that you came in with? I mean to try this... L: Yeah. Q: And what was the nature of the angle that they hadn't thought of? L: Well, it was that they were making it more technical than necessary. They were doing spectral analysis... they were doing x-ray defraction... they were doing everything in the world to find out what the substance was... they were doing chemical analysis, but... the bottom line is, the only time any of those yield results is if it's a common material that we already have data for... that it matches. 'Cause if it's a completely unknown and there's nothing to compare it to... yeah, it shows up, but it shows up strange numbers and strange readings and strange lines... and we just say, wow, what's that... so it was more of a simplistic view of what's going on. The first thing was... well, where is the gravitational wave coming from... that couldn't even be determined... there are simple things that were done... firing a laser over the top of it... Q: What happened? L: Well, the only thing that can bend light is gravity. Is there a gravitational wave actually being emitted from the element itself? Well, who knows... there's no instrument to detect gravitational waves... well, if you take a laser and fire it a great distance and then near the source of the laser put the element itself... then hundreds of feet away put a piece of graph paper and make a mark where the dot is... if there's any deviation at all you're bending light. Q: Is that the deal? Could you see a bend in the light with the human eye? L: No, you can't see the laser you just can see the dot. Q: I see. L: Other things that were done... Q: Did you guys know about smoking up the room? Q: You can put on goggles, can't you? Goggles to see the laser. L: No, not really... not that type of laser. Q: This is probably a (UNCLEAR)... I'm making a wisecrack, but that's what we do. L: It was a helium neon one... if you have a high power argon one... bright blue beams you can see... those are real visible, but there was no need for anything like that. Q: Poetic license. Q: I recently did a laser beam with string and some fluorescent light, because the laser beam didn't... the bad guys had a high tech (UNCLEAR -- volume low) machine and, you know, like everything else in this picture, nothing worked... and they're like oh, well, we can't use it... and I said just get a piece of string... lit it with blue and fluorescent light and it was a little beam of light. Q: Just do a reveal animation if you want to see... Q: Part of my job is to do the cheesy Doug Henning part of it... Q: A low budget David Copperfield. Q: Well, it looks like a laser beam in my shot. L: But there were some other tests that were done... the reason why we had to find what was going on... if we knew the element... it was kind of the starting point, then we could find out what the reactor was doing. After we find out what it was and how it was working, we later discovered that the bottom of the reactor was probably an accelerator of sorts. If anything it was like a cyclotron... where particles would rev up to high speed and then be diverted up and impact the element? Q: They didn't realize that at the time? L: No. That's almost exactly where... at the point they were at when they wanted to cut into it. Q: (GROUP "HMMM") L: What was that group "hmmm" (LAUGHTER) Q: Well, it almost makes fun of themselves... that's fabulous. Well, let me finish this though. You'd worked on cyclotrons before? L: No... not cyclotrons... but accelerators. Q: Okay... and is that background what made you realize what this really was? Q: The beauty of this is... I don't want to insult Bob, because I'm completely unscientific, but as we get closer... the fun of this stuff is... the guy who inflates these garbage bags and they bring him in because he's got a different point of view is able to say... of course this is working... because you're overcomplicating it. We can come up with a visual... when we meet him... that he is reminded of when he discovers what it is. That he's working with... what did you say it is... it's not cyclotrons? L: Accelerators. Q: We find a visual shorthand regarding particle accelerators that reminds our character, finally in his moment of eureka, what it is. There's ultimately ways where we can use the real language, but have visual cues that go a, b, c... so the story does turn into his tape... doesn't turn into a lecture... but it can still have the fun of his odd point of view... or his eccentric point of view... or his unencumbered point of view... is probably the best way to look at it... the fact that the other guys who worked on this were encumbered... and he's unencumbered... is part of the solution... which leads me to another kind of dynamic in this kind of story... which is once you have your moment of discovery of victory... you would normally, now I'm guessing, so again I'll apologize, wouldn't the person normally be able to exercise that in some fashion... a patent... an announcement... a paper... you know what I'm saying? Was the nature of this in some way frustrating... was there a let down after this? L: No, because normally... even when you're working for larger companies or a national laboratory... you normally can not patent anything anyway. Q: The company owns it. Q: Did you once say to me that you had to write down your own reports to some extent. Is this my imagination... was there something to do with as you report there was a sense of your paper was going on to someone who wasn't a scientist? L: Well, you always had to keep a log of everything you did. | | S4 - THE ROBERT LAZAR STORY TAPE 3 -- SIDE A Q: Question L: Lazar Q: After you discovered... L: Right... the fuel... it was really the beginning of the project because now we can really ascertain how the reactor probably worked and we can up with a theory and we had to prove that now... so there was a lot more work to be done... but that was kind of a stumbling block until we knew exactly where to proceed from... Q: Was this Barry beside you the whole time or were you coming into the room to Barry? L: Barry was always there. Q: So there was just a real sense of being in tandem. What was the nature of pressure... in terms of guys with guns... in sense of military pressure... was that intense at this time, or not? L: Not at this time, no. Later on it started increasing. Q: Really. During your work there... it started getting more and more pressure... L: Yeah... it was after the Russians left. Q: Now wasn't there some element missing at one time, too? L: Well, yeah... Q: Was there a chance the Russians were somehow tied to that? L: No... I was tied to that. Q: Did you? L: Yeah. Q: Where did you find it? L: Well, I found out where they were having... that's what the Los Alamos connection was... they were actually working at Los Alamos and, at that time, I could get anywhere I wanted to at Los Alamos. And if I couldn't get there, I knew people who were there. Q: Why did you take some? L: Well, this is also after... it was after the Russians left, after the... Q: Things were really tense when you took some. L: Yeah, because they kind of thought there was going to be repercussions from the Russians... that, you know, we want back in or we want the information and there was just kind of a tension there and this is when... now I've already seen all the goods... and now it's already beginning to wear off... so, now I'm not as content as I was. Q: So you took it as a form of insurance against them? L: Yeah. Q: I have to say something... this is the first time you've said that openly. (EVERYONE SPEAKS AT ONCE) Q: No, no, I'm not cycling the subject at all... L: It's in Jim Croissant's (?) script... but you never read it... Q: No, I never read it... no, all I'm saying is... I think it's cool... I think it's really neat, but I just want to make the point... L: Would you get me some water, please. Q: Forget I said it, but, my only reason for that is that is that something that you want to be known for... something you don't... Q: Jon, you can't editorialize, I'm dead serious... we want to hear the story... we'll develop the script and we'll all be a part of that... but I certainly don't want to start putting a do you want this, do you want that on this kind of conversation when he's so comfortable. Q: Alright, I understand. Fine. Q: The point is... that kind of shit needs to be outside of this room. Q: I understand. Q: We just got into something interesting... which is key... although it's getting ahead of the chronology... and that is two things... the level of military paranoia is increasing while he was there... particularly after the Russians were asked to pull out... which we suppose... correct me if I'm wrong... has something to do with this discovery you never learned about. L: Right... right... some other major discovery was made and they were kicked out... information not shared with them... and right after that the military involvement there... or the pressure... the amount of guards substantially increased. Q: What is really interesting is that Los Alamos Labs is working in conjuction with S4... what they're doing is analyzing... L: No... they weren't analyzing... they had no idea what they were dealing with.
Q: Why did they have some then? L: Because... this is liquid gas (?) essentially... this substance was stored in discs like silver dollar size and it was used in the reactors... the way it's manufactured, these discs are stacked up... Q: Kind of like Vegas... put a silver dollar in and the wheel spins... L: These discs are stacked up... they're taken sideways, compressed and then lathed into a cone... this cone is then sliced... like that... and only in that configuration can these discs work... when one of those slices... which if you look at one of those slices... Q: Was it easy to slice or hard material? L: I have no idea... it's very heavy and it will only work in that configuration in the reactor... for all that machining that was sent to Los Alamos... and it was sent under the guise of a new armor... and they were making test targets for the armor... and I thought, that was great 'cause it was going in as a classified material but they had no idea what they were dealing with. I knew the place in Los Alamos where it was going... I knew the building... I knew people that worked there... I've been in there... and it just really connected a lot of stuff together for me... that everyone really doesn't know what they're doing. Los Alamos had no idea. Q: We're ahead of our story, but when the shit really hit the fan for Bob personally he decides to take out some insurance... he can get into Los Alamos all he wants to... and take some of the stuff and keeps it... and basically this is... L: Well, I personally didn't take it. Q: Okay. Q: Can I ask some quick questions? Q: Ask all you want. Q: Your knowledge of the breakthrough that caused the heightened security came from Barry? L: Yes. Q: Barry told you... L: Barry and Dennis. Q: They said we've potentially found out something here that's going to change life for all of us around here... or was he more specific than that? L: No, he wasn't specific at all. Barry's the one that specifically told me that we're not sharing it with the Russians. Dennis is the one that told me well we've had some big break through and things may change a little around here and Barry kind of filled in the gaps... well, we decided not to share it with our buddies... and there might be some flak... so that's the way it was put. Q: Did you ever meet any Russians when you were there? Or was everyone so isolated? L: The Russians were there... Q: Why the hell would America have the Russians in on something... L: The only reason I can see is if they had hardware that we needed to interact with... Q: They probably had some piece to the puzzle. L: But I remember dealing with Russians at Los Alamos and, if there's any way possible to screw 'em, I'm all for it. Abso-fucking-lutely... ever single time we did anything... we developed... in the interest of science and cooperation... we were working on this super-conducting magnetic... and we had a big undertaking to have this thing made... it was millions of dollars and we could have really used it for our research, but we decided, well, we'll give it to the Russians for six months to let them use it and then, you know, take it back... stuff like this happened countless times... we'd let them borrow it for six months and they'd say... we lost it... it's gone. It was in a train crash... it's evaporated... and we'd never see it again... and this would happen countless times... so actually when I heard the information it was like, good, yeah, good... I'm glad... if we could have only shot them on the way out... I have absolutely no... because they just ripped us off continuously. Q: You didn't actually have any interaction with any Russian physicists while you were there? L: No. Coincidentally, someone I used to work with at Los Alamos was working at the test site and this had made the papers... that the Russians were coming in to do some joint nuclear test site inspection... and Joe, who was down at Los Alamos, saw them come in the cafeteria and left. They went to another area and he never saw them again. And I said, well, I found out where they were... very interesting... a complete cover story... even made headlines and stuff and they showed up at the nuclear test site, ate with everybody and then took off and the only time they saw them leave again, was some time later when... Q: I've got to ask you something... this comes right out of high school. I mean I meant to ask you this eventually... your story is so much about isolation and compartmentalization... what happens at lunch time... is everybody in the same room? Or are you there with one guy and a guard? L: I don't know because I always came there at 4:30 and I usually left at eleven. Q: So you didn't get to eat a meal there? L: No... Q: Huh. L: So I have no idea... maybe there's a bell that goes off and everybody goes some where, but the only lunchroom I was ever in was at Area 51 so it's just one of those things I don't know. Q: Fascinating. Q: Okay, so, if things started to get tenser after the Russians left... what was the progression? What started to happen that made life miserable? L: More guards and the guards being more obtrusive, I guess. Q: How would that happen? What's more obtrusive? What were they doing? L: Now instead of being outside the door, they were in the room. Q: This is the room were you read the briefings? L: Well, and in the lab... Q: What the hell would they be doing while you're working in the lab talking to Barry, standing there? L: Just standing there. Q: One, two... how many? L: Usually just one... even going into the bathroom, they would come into the bathroom, not just wait by the door. They'd sit and watch you... take a leak in the urinal... they would be right there and it would be just too... I got the feeling that it was specifically to intimidate us... Q: Something big was discovered. L: Something happened and they wanted you to know... this is kind of lock down... and they specifically hated me 'cause I felt like because I had never seen anyone else, other than the first time, coming and going all the time... that I was kind of the loose cog... because I was free to come and go as I pleased on flights in and out... and no one else was doing that and I really don't think that they liked that... they would rather me spend the night there... Q: There was just one guy on the bus or was that changed, too? L: No... that stayed that way. Q: Were they rude to you at any time? L: Oh, yeah, always. Q: What would they say? L: Nothing, nothing specific... like it was just general rudeness... I don't know how to describe it. Q: Did you ever wiseoff to them? Or were you scared of them enough not... L: No... I never wised off to them. Q: And would they ever... they would tell you were to go and what to do? Things like that? L: Yeah, just... stupid things... it's a long hallway to the bathroom and you'd be walking down there at a normal pace and he'd just give me a butt from behind, come on, we don't have all day... stuff like that... it was like... get off my back. Q: He would touch you? With his gun. L: Yeah. Yeah. Q: Did he have a rifle or a sidearm? L: I don't know, he was behind me. They all had rifles... I'm sure they had sidearms, too, but... Q: Was he pushing you with a rifle butt? L: I don't know... I just felt a... Q: Yeah, we don't have all day. L: But I couldn't believe it, when that happened. Q: That obviously shows some disrespect... L: There was great disrespect between them and us. So it was... Q: Now, this is interesting. What can the source of this be? Was there a sense of... there's a club sense in the military in general and there's a club sense in the scientific community... L: But why would they have anything against us? We're on the same side, unless whatever happened... Q: Someome probably fucked up on the scientific side that somebody didn't like... maybe somebody fucked him over. L: Right, and again that brings to mind the report with the aliens and the military... Q: Which report? L: There again... there's the pseudo science going on and military intervening so... we're seeing a low level repeating of that if that in fact is real... so it was just too confusing... it was disturbing... I didn't know... Q: So it could be a sense... it could have been a sense within the military side of this... that the scientific side... there were frustrated with the scientific side -- an elitist manner... Q: Or that the scientific side had allowed something to get out... if people knew there was a break through and... this is just pure speculation, but evidently the military side was upset at the scientific side because... Q: How else did the atmosphere change... okay the guards... we know... more guards... what about personnel... were there other ways of telling something could be going down? Q: What was Barry's attitude... was he just as chipper as always? L: Yeah... Barry really never changed. Q: Barry seems like such an odd duck to me. Here's a guy, totally out there... L: Well, he's not totally out there... he's just a guy at work. He's not anything. Q: But the guy has no wife that I can tell of... that's just amazing. L: But I didn't see him enough... I was seeing him sporadically... every other week here and there... Q: Was he happy for your company? Did you have a sense of that? L: Oh yeah! Q: Do you have a sense of his working in isolation other than with you? L: Yeah... he was happy to see me. Q: So he may have been a guy, to some extent, in a very solitary position except for when you came. L: Right. Q: That's a good dynamic. L: That's when we started fooling around... like I said... we had the reactor running and checking the field out on it and bouncing stuff off of the top of it... doing stupid stuff. Q: When was the first time that you saw that that could happen? Was that in its own way a discovery? L: No... that was just something Barry had on... Q: Barry had the field on many times before that? L: Yeah. Q: And what exactly did you see? What did you bounce against it? L: A golf ball. Q: So you have an invisible magnetic field... Q&L: Gravitational field... Q: Gravitational field... L: Well, the first thing was... you started the reactor, put the reactor under and the ray (?) was just sitting on the table and then he'd turn the reactor on and he's say, touch it. And you'd feel... it's almost like if you had two magnets in your hand, but with no metal at all... as you put your hand closer to it, you could never actually touch the metal reactor... which is pushed solidly (?)... and on the base of it, he'd say okay now try and move it... Q: Was there any sound? L: No, no... total silence... and to move it... you could not move it at all... it was just locked in time and space essentially... it was just completely immovable... then you could feel that the field was almost elastic on the top and that's when we were bouncing things off it... and he wailed a golf ball at the top and it rebounded off and there's this suspended ceiling and it blasted one of the tiles and some of the stuff came down and the guard wasn't in the room, so we had an emergency clean up before the guard saw us doing anything... that was the only time we were concerned about... Q: Did the dust fall in the field? L: No... it just fell around... Q: If it had, would it just have stopped in mid-air... L: I don't know... that's interesting. Q: Well, if you poured liquid over it... L: It would just run down the sides... Q: Did you ever do that? L: No, we did all kinds of silly things though, but... Q: That would be another small thing to take license with that we ought to do... as Barry demonstrates it, we move into Bob... that's great stuff... that kind of effect done well, so you absolutely believe what you see, is better than an entire spaceship attack on some wacky... Q: ... the black holes that were created in the lab and the black discs... L: Well, just one disc... the bending of light... that's when they had one of the amplifiers off the craft connected to the reactor and focused it down and you could see through it and then there's just a black dot where you can see all the light was being bent away from the focal point... that was amazing... Q: That was like hallucinatory, I would think... L: Yeah, right, that's exactly what it does... because the absolute first thing you did was try to look at it out of the corner of your eye, expecting it to move... Q: Can you put your hand through that? L: No, you couldn't stick your hand by the... Q: What would happen? L: I don't know... but he just said, don't do that. Q: Alright... so, I asked... Barry didn't seem to change much, but was the atmosphere on the... L: No... another guy I met was Rene and he... I didn't spend a lot of time with him, but he was more or less working with another guy somewhere else, but he's the only other guy that I met... Q: And how was he... was he affected at all by the increased security? L: No, not really. Q: Everybody was still happy in their work... L: Yeah, more or less. Q: So the guards were tougher... something had gone down... we don't know what... where does this lead us in your personal story... you were continuing to work... Q: How many days a week now? L: Ahh... still only one or two... I mean, not a lot... not even two days a week... Q: It's hard for me to imagine you doing work this important... L: Yeah, but what was happening, coincidentally, not coincidentally, but simultaneously, I should say, now... this is probably what prevented me from going on full time right away... at that time, my wife was having an affair without me knowing... and she's doing all the communication over the phone... so they pulled the brakes, and I only found this out after, they pulled the brakes on essentially letting me in, because now they're kind of at an impasse of what to do... because now they have a candidate for mental instability for social problems at home... marital problems at home... and they're more or less waiting for this to come to a head... sitting there listening in to a soap opera every day on the phone and waiting for it either to dissolve or come to a head or something... and I think that was the lag time that we're looking at. Q: So you yourself may have been wondering why you weren't making it... L: Right, right... and essentially at one point they just didn't call me back and then I began to wonder what's going on and it's in your imagination... that's what kills you because now time goes on and, you know, now what the guards have told me is beginning to echo in my head... why am I home and there's no one watching me now. Q: What's echoing in your head? L: Well... something about we do what is absolutely ever necessary to keep this secret, so on and so forth... Q: Was there a threat in that? L: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Q: So, they were suggesting they'd kill you. L: Oh, yeah. No, ifs, ands, or buts... Q: Did they say... we'll kill you? Did they say it outright? L: No... not at that point. Q: This was after things got worse... L: No this was before. This was way before. Q: That was early... part of the welcome to the place... L: Right. Q: But you were remembering it more now? L: Ahh... Q: Was it repeated? L: No, it wasn't repeated. Q: What did you do while you were waiting for the callback? L: Nothing... just tried to continue on with life as normal... Q: Without meaningful work... that must have been difficult. L: Yeah, that was really difficult... and it began to get really tough, and that's when I started telling someone... that's when I started speaking to Gene about it. Q: Is that who I met? L: Yeah. It was actually a relief to tell him... and... Q: What brought you to tell him finally? L: I don't know... I just began to worry... I don't know if it was unfounded... I don't know about what... Q: Did he notice the change in you? L: Oh, yeah. You can ask him about that. He... ah... it was a great relief to unload on him and everything and that's when we went out and saw the test flights and so on and so forth... Q: Is that the night you unloaded? L: No... it was some time before... it was kind of a slow unloaded... you kind of tell him a couple of things and then... the only place I would talk to him... I wouldn't talk to him in my home... it was either in his car or walking outside somewhere... I didn't trust anything... 'cause I knew the level of technology that was going on... I knew what the guys were capable of... so it would just be in person... Q: Could they be watching at this time? L: Oh, yeah... there was no doubt about it. Q: That's bad news for us. L: There's no doubt about that. Q: How can you tell? L: Well, as I'll get into... they've turned up at places where they'd be people outside... all kinds of things. Q: What's happening with your wife? Now you still don't know this is going down... that she's continuing this affair and you're home... L: Right... now I'm home and she's disappearing at night. Taking flying lessons... but I knew you had to have so many hours of night flying to get your flying license... so it made sense... Q: It was a good cover... L: Yeah. Q: So why didn't they just leave it like that? Why did they have to tell you anything? You would have discovered it eventually on your own. Did they finally tell you this... or what happened then... L: Well, yeah... there's a lot of events that lead up to that. But... I eventually... well, after I told Gene it was kind of a... again a chain reaction took place... then I told her... and then I told... Gene had recently met John Lear... this is how I got to know John Lear... and found out that he had... we wanted his telescope... he had a big Celestron 8" telescope... so we told him a little bit about it... not as much as I had told Gene... just enough to get him to bring his telescope so we could see what was going on... that's when we were actually able to see... an 8" telescope from 13 miles yields a pretty good picture of the disc... Q: Did you film through it? L: No, we couldn't... it was just to see. I looked pretty good. Q: Was that one night or a number of nights? L: Well, it was a number of nights since we got away with it on the first night, we were just compelled to keep going back and... Q: Always Wednesday? L: Always Wednesday night. At that time. Then... what happened after that? After that... Q: Can I go back for just a second? L: Sure. Q: When you were waiting for the call to go back, and the call wasn't coming because he had been monitoring your phone calls between your ex-wife and her lover and you'd go out and talk with Gene... did you know that they were surveilling you? L: Yeah. Q: How did you know? L: In fact... the first time I had seen that was, I believe, when I went to John Lear's house and when I pulled up in the driveway... a car pulled up across the street and I just stayed there... and when I left, they left and several hours later... at night... I was asleep and I woke up and looked outside the window... the kitchen window... and the car was parked directly across the street... now that's an overt showing to me... they could have hide around the corner somewhere, but they... Q: They probably were hearing you telling people. L: Well, how could they? Q: Well, maybe not, but they had some sense... they wanted to threaten you. Q: If you went to John Lear's house... they certainly knew you were there to talk about... because they knew he was involved with UFO's... L: Right... and then going around with Gene... it was just once in awhile you would just be followed and then the most overt showing occurred a little later on and, at the time, I was going to work out with my friend's girlfriend, Shelly... and I just go to this Family Fitness Centers... and we'd leave... well, at first, it was either this friend Shelly or Mario I'd go with. And Mario and I left one night to go there at night in my 280Z and I started bringing my gun with me, 'cause I started getting scared... So, which, at that time I had an Uzi, so I left it on the console... Q: Is it legal to have an Uzi here or is that illegal... L: Yeah... so I just carried that with me and it just began... we went and we parked the car. Now, I'm wearing shorts, so I can't... Q: Carry your Uzi... L: Yeah, can't carry my Uzi and I left my wallet and I just covered it with a towel or whatever was in the back... over the center console... left it in the car... and locked the doors and Mario and I went out... we came back, and he goes around the other side and opens the door... but the door wasn't even closed... both doors, the driver and passenger side, were both ajar... and I said, God... but nothing was taken... and I thought, oh, gee what a stupid mistake... it's impossible, but I remember locking the door, so, it was two nights later we'd go back to work again, and this time, same deal, had the gun, wallet, same place, covered up... and we go and we actually make a joke about it... we lock the doors and we close them... and we're trying to open the doors... we're shaking the car back and forth... acting stupid like, you think it's closed now... well, it seems to be... so we go inside... just thinking we were stupid that time... we come out about an hour and a half later and both doors of the car are wide open and nothing's disturbed in the car... and I'm going... this is really strange. Q: Was Gene with you? L: No, just this guy Mario... and, at that point, he got really scared. Q: Sure. L: He knew I was doing some kind of crazy thing... so I had him start the car... (LAUGHTER) L: Mario remembers that well... Q: How do you get someone else to start your car... what do you tell them? L: I just said start it... I just want to see if it's running right... he knew it was... Q: About a bomb and he started it anyway? L: Yeah. Q: That's a good friend. L: Yeah... I looked underneath... I don't know... now my imagination's running away with me... So I get back to the house and Mario, not surprisingly, didn't want to go with me the next time... so I went with Shelly... we left... came back... and she had left her car in the driveway... and her doors were wide open in the car... her seats slide back and everything was gone through when we got back to the house. And it just seemed like nothing was being done other than someone letting us know... Q: You're not alone... L: Yeah... you weren't alone... it was just to aggravate... not to aggravate me... but... Q: Well, this would scare the living shit out of me personally. L: Yeah, I always thought there was someone somewhere and it was an extremely... now I'm beginning to think, well why are they treating me like this... is it going to escalate further? So... Q: Did you call Dennis or anybody? L: No... same thing as before... as I called... no one here by that name... blah, blah, blah... Q: So there was no one you could turn to at this point. L: No... there was no one I could turn to and now it kind of starts getting scary for me... though maybe nothing was happening, but it was in my mind... then... I spoke to... it was originally Gene, I think, that said, what you should do is probably tell a news reporter or something... and, for whatever reason, just in case anything happens... or what... so... Q: So... but... now, I'm sorry... but you hadn't been out yet with Gene to the... L: Yeah, we had several times... Q: But you hadn't been caught... L: No... we hadn't been caught... wait, am I leaving out the... Q: Because it did escalate significantly after you were caught. L: Yeah, but I'm trying to get to the last time now... did that happen before... Q: Well, you can look at your notes... I don't want you to get stuck on chronology just yet... but the point is during this period you're getting more and more paranoid... this has got to be hell... cause you've got to have an instinct that life at home sucks... you don't know why exactly... L: Yeah, just something wierd... but... Q: What was your wife's reaction to being told you were working... when you told her you were working on UFOs, did she believe you? L: Yeah, well, after we all went out to see a test... Q: You brought her as well... L: Yeah, I think the second time she came out as well... END OF TAPE 3 -- SIDE A TAPE 3 -- SIDE B Q: Third time... L: Third time... umm... we wanted to go out... Tracy's sister was in town... again... Q: Ex-wife... L: Yeah, Tracy, my ex-wife, her sister Kristen was in town and we were going... me, Tracy, her sister and Gene were going out again. We're getting ready to go and John Lear pulled up in the driveway... just because... we purposely didn't really talk to him because we knew John then was a little crazy... cause we'd heard that he was into the UFO stuff and one of the only reasons I had originally contacted him was thinking I wonder if any of this stuff that he's accumulated is true. And he just let me... Q: Did you know him before all this? L: No. And he... actually the reason, let me digress for a minute, the reason I told Gene was, coincidentally, and Gene was just a pseudo-friend... more than an acquaintance... but not a really good friend, but I really didn't know very many people out here... at that time, cause I just kept to myself... he was just a guy on my photo staff who I kind of spent some time with and he had coincidentally, he's a real estate appraiser, had appraised John Lear's house... cause John Lear was getting it re-financed or something... and had at one time, while I was working on the project, started telling me about, yeah, there's this guy and about aliens and stuff like that... and I'm thinking to myself... this is a scream, hearing this and not being able to say anything... Q: Oh, that's great... L: Anyway, that was my... that was the reason I first started talking to Gene. 'Cause that began to be big news here right after... John Lear started giving lectures at the libraries around here... so it was in the papers shortly after that. Q: Is he the son of the Lear jet man? L: Bill Lear... yeah. Q: So, this is a wealthy kid? L: No, his father wrote him out of all the inheritance and all that stuff... Q: So he's a full time UFO guy? L: No, he's a pilot -- part time pilot... Q: How old is he? L: John always looks like he's sixty... but he's probably 49, I guess. Q: Okay... so did he join you? L: Ah, yeah... he showed up and we... there was no way we could leave without him coming along and we really didn't want him to come along... but there was no way out of it... so he did. We went up there and we brought Geiger counters... binoculars... telescopes... radios... guns... I mean, we were ready for anything... so we go up there and we put everything in the trunk... and, but hide the gun underneath the spare tire... Q: Uzi again? L: No, this was just a pistol. We were up on the highway trying to decide where to go and everyone suggested that we stay there and I insisted that we go in further... which was a colossal mistake... so we got in the car... Q: This is closer than you ever watched before? L: Right... Q: So in some sense this was progressive... each time you took a greater risk. L: Oh, we were going to continuously do that... Q: This was a dirt road now... you're all in one vehicle? L: All in one vehicle. And we purposely had to get a rented car to fit everyone, cause everyone only had cars with two seats in them... everyone, coincidentally owned sports cars, and Kristen was from out of town and she had rented a car... Q: What did your wife think of all this stuff? L: She thought it was neat. All of a sudden she's getting into it. So, we all pile into the car and drive out and wait until about dusk and go down on the road and we get in real close and we saw... well, initially when we're up on the top of the road, you could see this (UNCLEAR) sweeping the air... just looking for anybody. Q: A helicopter? L: Bronco's just blasting through the desert all over the place... and we just stayed far, far away. Q: So you were up on a ridge. L: Yeah, the highway's up on a ridge. Q: Did you have your lights off? L: Well, it was daylight at that time... and we put the tire iron out and made it look like we were changing a tire... did the whole... in fact this is all on video tape... even us doing the fake tire thing... then it started getting dark... the security people started dissipating and then we turned the lights out and drove down the road... just keep it in first gear so we don't have to hit the brakes and have brake lights come on... cause they'd see that... so we roll further than we've ever gone and stop and the way we'd stop was we'd just put it into park and it's go GRRRR-WHAM... so we didn't have to hit the brakes. Then everyone forgot about it... that when you open the door the dome light comes on... so it was like a spotlight in the middle of nowhere and it was almost as if the dome light was connected to headlights in the desert... we open the door and they just went... around us and we knew we were dead. So the concensus was we didn't want them to catch me so we turned around and started leaving real fast... but you could already see that there were Jeeps that were heading us off... closing us off at the pass... so we were absolutely caught and dead... but no one had come to us yet, so we stop in the middle and I get out and I run out into the desert... then... now the rest of this was from them because I was too far away to see... and I'm just laying down in the bushes, but I took the gun with me and they, with the trunk open... Q: That was smart... did you think you might be killed? L: Yeah. Yeah, I was really scared then... they whipped the trunk open and set up the telescope and then John Lear gets out and says the stupidest line ever... so they came blasting out in the Jeeps with the guns and everything... Q: Now these are the... L: Desert camouflaged... no name, rank, insignia or anything... they're just... Q: Nicholson is John Lear... Q: Right. L: But the guards comes out and John says, I can't remember what he said exactly, but, We're not breaking up a dope deal or anything are we? I mean a real stupid thing... and the guards just stood there in amazement... They said, what are you doing... and John said, we're looking at stars. They know he's just set it up and John says... yeah, we've been here for awhile. And they watched us leave... I really didn't hear any of this... I was just told this... and then they talked to them for awhile... and they said, well, you need to get out of here... you're close to a military installation... blah, blah, blah... just leave. So, they said, okay, fine... they pack up everything, but they don't leave. And they just see the guards drive off. Now, unbeknownst to them, to anyone at that time, it's absolute totally pitch black... you can't see your hand in front of your face. They drove fifty feet and stopped and stood on top of the car with the night vision scopes watching everyone... I mean from here to there... they were right there, but no one could see them. And, we're sitting there and I come back... and it was kind of a jovial type of a relaxed mood and Gene and I frequently joke around a lot and we were saying stupid things... and, as I came back in from the desert, slinging the gun... I said something to Gene like, well, I told the attack force just to lay low until those guys were out of site... and Gene said, well, that's good, okay... and the guys on the Jeeps don't know what's going on... Q: Could they hear you? L: Yeah, they heard us fine... cause later this came up at the briefing and so they went to arms with the guns... Q: Attack force... L: Yeah, they didn't know if we were joking around or what... but, they're just like, what attack force... and plus a guy just came out of the desert with a gun... so there're like, oh, no... Q: You couldn't make this up. L: It's an amazing scene... so we're sitting there and now our car is pointing away... Their vehicle is pointing towards us and they're all there and we can't see them and I'm leaning against the bumper of the car at the back and I put the gun back in the trunk, close it up, and I said, we better get out of here... and we started talking about... well, we saw cars up there and... I don't know where they went... so on and so forth... and I said, I didn't see anything... I was in the bushes... and I think Gene even interjected there and said, with the other guys, right? L: And I said, oh yeah... Q: I'm sorry, but I actually blanked for a second, because I was thinking of how to do this on film... would you back up for me... L: Okay, I'm just sitting... Q: You've returned... you said... L: I've returned... I've put the gun in the trunk underneath the tire... I said, I didn't see where the other cars went that were up by the road and looked like there were going to cut us off and I said I just had my head down in the bushes... and Gene said, with the other guys, right. And I said, yeah. Another... so we were just joking around with each other... so we're all collectively just staring out that way, deciding well, should we leave or should we stay... it's public land essentially, we think... so, at that time, we hear a THUD on the ground and this little green glowing dot rolling towards us... one of the guys dropped the night vision scope... (LAUGHTER) L: And we're just completely shocked by it... that this thing is rolling across the road and then you see it just get picked up in total blackness... all you see is just this little green dot... so... that was the decision... so I said, let's just get the hell out of here... cause we knew exactly what it was and then Kristen, Tracy's sister, was kind of a little ditz and said, did someone drop a lighter... did any of you guys drop a lighter... just get in the car... let's go. So we drove off. Now we came to the road... now they don't have any jurisdiction over us... but they had called the Lincoln County sheriff, so we came up to the road and the sheriff was waiting there and he just said, stop.... (TAPE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON) L: They can hold you there... Q: Did they take you to jail? L: No... they can hold you and question you for an hour and then they must let you go. As it turned out, Kristen was going to law school... (LAUGHTER) L: ... and... Q: How old was Kristen? L: Ah... she was older than Tracy, so she was about my age. And so she looked forward to a confrontation with either the military or the police just because she knew all her rights and all that stuff. So the police get there and... am I leaving out a part... what happened... Q: I don't think so... this jives perfectly with what I've read and seen... but it gets very interesting when the police get involved... L: Well... we didn't go to a police station or... Q: When they opened the trunk? L: Yeah... what happened was another great John Lear move... if we'd only left him home... they said, well, can we see I.D.'s... so everyone said, well, we don't have our wallets... okay... so he said, what's your name... what's your name... and we told him our names... and it seemed like he was gone for a... then they asked John and... Q: Were you telling them false names or yours? L: No, we told them real names. And then he asked John and John said, oh, wait, mine's in the trunk... and we're all mentally trying to tell John... do not open the trunk... and he opens the trunk, cause he did put his wallet in there, and everything in the world is in there... and the cop, of course, walked over to the trunk with John and he opened it up and shined his light in there... and the first words out of his mouth were... what are you guys doing here... we're out star gazing was, I think, the cover story... they said, you're out star gazing... you've got a Geiger counter, what else did we have... I mean all kinds of ridiculous stuff there... shovels and everything... and you guys are out star gazing... and the cop said, well, what is all this stuff for... and we were all just kicking rocks around... we couldn't even think of a lie to tell him... and he said, okay, well, I'm going to have to search the car. And Kristen says, no... and then he gets a call from the guys... the base or the guys directly and then he comes out and he says... where's the gun? So then we knew he absolutely talked to them and he said... originally they saw four people in the car, now there's five... or whatever the hell it was... and some guy walked in from the desert with a gun... and we said, we don't know what you're talking about... that's crazy. So she went back and forth with him... and he said, well, I've got reasonable cause... she said, well, what is it... so he called in another cop... and another cop comes and the reason he called the other cop, he actually went to start his car and it wouldn't start... now we never did pick up on this so he called the other car and he made it know to us... I'm getting a tow truck, cause we're going to tow it down to the police station and strip it... well, the tow truck was for his car because it wouldn't start. So he called the other cop to come over so he could drive him out of there. Now we had no idea that that was the deal and we thought he was just playing with the mike and then here comes the tow truck... and we're thinking... ahhh, Kristen, you better know what the hell you're talking about cause they are taking us out of there. And the funny thing was the cop kept talking and it really seemed like they were going to tow the car and we were going to go to jail and stuff like that unless you just tell me where the gun is and then it will all be over... which is probably a lie anyway, but, I figured I was getting everyone into trouble so I went up to the cop and was trying to interrupt him to tell him where the gun was, but he wouldn't shut the fuck up, cause he was talking to this other cop and, as soon as he stopped talking, he turned around and said, well, I can only legally keep you here an hour... it's been 59 minutes... so, I don't know why you won't let me search the car... and I was so thankful that he didn't let me admit what was going on and then he started reading our names back to the base... and I don't know if it was coincidentally, but when he came to my name, he went in the car and closed the door and then spoke to them... then he came out and said you guys can go. And we got in the car and left. And then the next morning I was called like the normal time, but instead of the lady it was Dennis and Dennis said, well, I'm going to meet you today and... like nothing had happened... but we've got to drive out to Indian Springs Air Force Base, which is kind of a closed, auxiliary Air Force Base in the middle of nowhere up here and he said, I'm going to need a ride, so we're going to take your car... is that okay? I said, yeah, sure. Q: Were you suspicious? L: I was a little suspicious, but you know in the back of my mind I thought, they didn't make the connection, that's great... or else Dennis would be pissed. Maybe it's just something else and this is when they took... we drove up and about nine-tenths of the way there... we're entering the town of Indian Springs and it's been like an hour drive. Q: Where did you meet Dennis? L: Down at EG&G. Q: Okay. L: And it's been like an hour drive and now we're just entering the town of Indian Springs and he says, the only time he ever said anything jokingly was he said, Bob, when we said it was a secret project we didn't mean for you to bring everyone you knew out to see test flights. (LAUGHTER) L: And then I already knew... you know, we were there and that they knew and the whole thing. Oh, before that... cause that reminds me of something else... before that we were setting this thing up, Gene and I, so we decided to talk in code over the phone... so we were talking about going fishing and I guess on the phone we said, yeah, well if anything goes wrong... the story is that you guys were going and it would be more suspicious for me not to go, so I went along with you and you dropped me off at the stop sign up on the road and I had nothing to do with it. So the first thing that they say, this was just over the phone between Gene and I, the first thing they say when I get in there, they said, did you ever think we'd ever fall for the stop sign story... so I had no answer for that and then that's when it started. More or less an interrogation... and that's when they kind of got real... Q: How did that go? Q: Now, wait, you're out in Indian Springs, what kind of environment are you in? L: It's like an Air Force Base. Q: And you walk into a room with other people? L: Yeah, walk into a room that had... it was Dennis who came with me... and there were two other guys there and they said we're waiting for a couple of people to get here... and they were waiting for the guards that were there... now this is how I found out the whole story... and also how I know that the guards didn't know anything, 'cause I purposely made mention of a flying saucer to them and they got the guards out of the room and they were extremely pissed after that. And these were the guards... I guess they're separate and I guess they're external from the base, which are a different group... Q: Indian Springs is shut down, you said, though? L: Well, you can go by there today and there's nothing ever happening there. I mean there's not a soul ever visible and once in awhile if you just kind of stake out the place, cause after this was all over, I just kind of monitored things, once in awhile you'll see the strangest things... like a completely black painted fighter will land there with no insignia on it... people will come out of no where and do some stuff to it, go back in, the plane will take off, and then it returns back to a desolate place... but you can see everything... there's nothing hidden. It's the strangest place... I have no idea what goes on there and it says "Auxiliary Air Force Base" right on the outside. Q: There's a military housing out there and it's all boarded up... L: It is like the eeriest place... Q: That's what's so great, cinematically, he's taken to like this ghost town Air Force Base... Q: Exactly. L: Yeah, but, it comes to life sporadically... for no reason and, you know, and then shuts back down. Q: Hiding something in plain sight. L: Yeah, it is... it's on 95, if you want to go north of here, you can not go through it... it's right alongside the road... the entire thing is an episode out of "The Twilight Zone" and there's absolutely... Q: How intense was the interrogation? L: That was pretty intense. That's when they brought up the phone transcripts, printed transcripts between my wife and the guy, Chris... Q: First time you were aware of that? L: Yeah. And then I saw that... well, you know, I skipped the GUFON story. Before that... this is right after I had started talking to Gene... started telling him... and right after we came back from Lear's house, I started looking through his material... which was all stupid things... aliens are here to steal frogs (?) because they need something... I mean, ridiculous things... either that or they're going to eat us... and we had noticed that on a lot of the information they had it was either from the Mutual UFO Network and everything in acronyms... it was MUFON... and the Computer UFO Network, which was CUFON... everything had an UFON name to it... we kind of thought that was funny... and because Gene considered me a source of UFO information... he started calling me BUFON... so, just as kind of a joke on the phone, I called him GUFON... it became a running thing... that night... you know we did that, it was the first phone call and I think he was calling me from a strange phone somewhere and he said, BUFON, this is GUFON... we just did something stupid like that... I said, yeah, what's going on... ah, nothing, just doing the normal stuff... just a bullshit phone call, but if it was someone external listening to it... it would have really sounded wierd now that I look back on it. So it was not twenty minutes later, and this has always amazed me... twenty minutes later... and it takes you twenty minutes to drive from downtown, that the doorbell rings, I come over to the door and there is a computer printout with redline of that conversation... BUFON, GUFON... the stuff we talked about... in little brackets... like, just doing the regular stuff... that was bracketed... and they said, we've got to have a talk about your conversation... and I was like amazed. Q: Who were these people? Anyone you knew or had seen before? L: No. Never seen before, but the same type of... Q: Suits. L: Yeah, suits that had come... exact same type of guys. And I knew I had signed the order to do that. And I explained who GUFON was... what we were doing... I just said, it's a nickname... and they had me fill out a form that said Gene Huff AKA Gufon and his address and they said, do you have any other aliases? (LAUGHTER) L: And to me it was hilarious, it was a funny thing... so that was the first occurrence of the telephone... Q: So this was the first time you were told about your wife's infidelities in this sort of deserted place... that's heaven. L: Yeah. Q: What was the purpose of that? L: Them telling me? I don't know. I think it was just a smack in the face. Q: They were mad at you basically for talking. L: Yeah. Q: It's wild. L: I think they were also telling me why... because nothing was coming of it... I really don't know... Q: What else happened in the interview? L: That's when they physically started screaming at me... when the gun took out his gun, out of his holster, and that's when they made it known in no uncertain terms that if they felt that I was jeopardizing the secrecy of the project at all, they would kill me, absolutely on the spot. Q: They said that? L: Oh, yeah, absol... right to my face. Q: Pointed the gun at your head? L: Yeah, yes. That story is absolutely true. Q: Who did it... L: An unknown, nothing, stupid guy. Q: They touch skin, or just point, or what? L: They just pointed... Q: Unbelievable. L: Before they had an M16 is what they usually carried and... Q: Was the guy in uniform? L: Yeah. Q: What else did they ask? Q: Was Dennis there? L: Yeah, Dennis was sitting right there. Q: What was his attitude. L: Totally silent. He disappeared at that point. Q: He didn't have a gun pointed at you, so he was less important. L: Correct. Q: Did you just return home after that and that was it? L: No, it went on a little bit further. Actually, you know, I think he pointed a rifle at me. Q: You weren't struck or physically restrained? L: No, but, I'm telling you... you should know if it was a gun or a rifle... but this was a really... Q: I had a gun pointed at me once and all I saw was a black hole. L: It was a really traumatic event. Q: I saw this black hole and I could have sworn there was a breeze coming out of it. L: It was too much stuff at one time... cause the thing with my wife, with the gun and the people yelling at me... and it kind of all... it kind of went into a blur. Q: Did you think you were going to die? L: No, not at all. Well, it became... now everything was bouncing off of me... it didn't matter... if the guy cocked the gun and put it in my face, it didn't matter, now I was impervious to everything at that point. And that's when I cracked a smile again... and, you know, right after he said, we'll have no problem killing you... I can't even fake it... it just has to actually happen... and that's when he said, implied that there had been other people that they had killed. Q: Was that the first time you ever suspected that they had disappeared anybody? L: Yeah, for real. Q: Was there ever even rumors about that at the base? L: No, no one talked about that. Q: Did they show you death certificates? L: No, but they said... that's when I smiled and they said... do you think we're kidding about this... would you like to see death certificates? Q: This was some nervous smile? L: Right... it just happens... but too much had happened in over the four or five minutes... so now it just didn't matter what they said. And that's when they brought the guys in... because I guess these other two guys that were in charge of the interview hadn't heard the report and they came in and said that's the guy... to me. And they said... something else to them... I don't remember where it was that I inserted it... but somewhere in there I had said something about... I inserted the term flying saucer... Q: Did you do it on purpose or... L: Oh, no, totally on purpose... because they were skirting around the topic... they said they were in a restricted area because they were conducting restricted tests... and I said, well, during the flying saucer test... you know, purposely like that, but I can't remember how it was inserted in the wording and I mean, you could instantly see the cringe on everyones' face... they really didn't want any of that said... so... it.... they got the guards out and they finished yelling at me at some length... and it really completely blurred past that... I went back with Dennis and... Q: Did Dennis have any comment on the drive back? L: Oh, yeah, he had some negative comments... Q: He said you'd fucked up or whatever... L: Yeah, good job, Bob... but very minimal talk and we got back... Q: Well, this guy was not your friend? L: No. Q: He was always a little distant. L: Yes. Now real distant. Now, when I got back after that, the more... people following type of thing... Q: They harrassed the shit out of you because they knew you were talking. L: Right. Q: What was the worst thing they did? L: When they shot at the Z. Q: What went down? You were driving along... L: Driving from just seeing Gene... and we had just been talking on the phone about a guy named George Knapp, that had always been doing reports on Area 51 and stuff like that... and I was going to go see him. Q: You were on the phone during this conversation? L: I was on the phone with Gene saying we were going to set up a meeting. Q: From here or a public phone? L: From here. And I drove to Gene's office over on Eastern and then said, well... he had spoken to George... I don't remember exactly how the events went down, but George said he was going to get a satellite link-up truck so they could just take me somewhere, interview me, bounce it off a satellite and then get it back to the station... that was really cool... and I said, okay, we'll do that... we're just going to interrupt in the five o'clock news and say it... because now, for some reason, I really thought I was in trouble... I just had to... Q: For some reason... you had a gun pointed in your face... L: But... it was... it just made more sense to me to say something publicly now, because it would just be intolerable to... Q: What did you have to say to your wife when you came home? Did you confront her about this stuff? L: No, right now everything was on hold... this was more important. Q: Did you go home? L: No, not really. She wasn't home yet anyway... so was out fucking some other guy... so coming back from Gene's, there was this wierd on-ramp from Charleston to the I-15 Fwy and, as I was driving, a car appeared next to me and, I typically drive like a sixteen year old, I never let anybody get in front of me... as I'm driving, I really didn't have time to play around with any one, but I went fast and he went fast and stuff like that... I thought he wanted to race or something... so, right when we came around the turn to get on the on-ramp, I just jammed on the gas and took off. And he was riding along side of me the whole time and I think he was trying to say something to me out the window... though, I never did see... Q: You don't know who it was? L: No, but, just as I turned the corner, I glanced back like, now get away from me, and the window was rolled down and all I saw was there was a gun pointed at me... END TAPE 3 -- SIDE B | | S4 - THE ROBERT LAZAR STORY TAPE 4 -- SIDE A Q: ... can you begin... because the tape ran out right there when you were describing what exactly happened when the other car pulled up alongside of you... you said you froze? L: Yeah, he pulled up alongside of me... when I saw the gun, I froze and was still accelerating, but I didn't make the turn and then I heard the gun fire twice... it fired at the side of the car, you know, later finding the holes... and then hit the rear tire... and I just went straight off the embankment off into the ditch and he went around the corner and took off. Q: One man in the other car... two men? L: There were two guns. I'm almost sure. He took off, but I didn't see him make the turn and I thought that he followed me down there and I just stayed, because I thought he was walking up behind me... so I stayed and I just could not raise my head to look, cause I was absolutely petrified... so I had my hands on the steering wheel and I just stayed there and I was looking right at the ground and I just stayed there and I just expected him... I mean I must have been there like fifteen minutes... and I couldn't imagine what was taking him so long to walk up alongside of me... and I finally... it wore off and I turned and there was no car there and I looked back and then I finally got the car out and then I had backed it up and, coincidentally, a city truck had come by... Q: You had a flat tire? L: Yeah... well the tire was hit... the rim was... Q: I'm surprised you could back up at all. L: Well, it wasn't a deep ditch, I backed up out of there and then a city maintenance truck was coming by, a white truck with bags of garage on the road... picks up the stuff... and he followed me all the way home. I said some guy shot at me and I went off the embankment here and he was a nice guy... I went on Charleston and just drove on the rim all the way home... probably five miles... and continued to fuck up the rest of the car and then got there and called and told Gene what had happened... and then from there went with Gene and went to the satellite link-up and they interrupted the news. Q: You went straight... that's amazing. That is amazing! You told me about this... there was more information about aliens... in the same room you went into there were different briefs... and you kept going to the same spot... there were armed guards up there... and that one of the briefs, at least, was this plastic photograph... would you describe that again? L: Right... there were... a very odd book where, if you've ever seen any of the old Collier encyclopedias they have... if you look under human anatomy they have several clear Mylar pages and you could peel away the circulatory system and see bones and peel away muscles and so on and so forth and see different layers... but what they had in this book was really odd in that it would do that as you turned the page... almost like the old 3-D postcards... Q: It was a book in fact? L: Yeah, it was much... it wasn't that cheap, I guess, cause you had to see them at certain angles... but just, as you moved the page every just a few degrees, it would go through the different layers and in one they had a hut of a house and it was like a mud type house... and you'd move it and the grass would disappear... move it... the mud would disappear... you'd see the superstructure... move it and you'd just see the internal dwelling area... and to me that was amazing... because I couldn't possible see how that could be done optically on... Q: How thick was the paper? L: It was just as thick as a piece of Mylar... Q: Were there hundreds of pictures in this book? L: No it was a lot of text and just pictures here and there. Q: What language was the text in. L: English. It seemed like the English was inserted... re-inserted in there. Q: So who made this book? L: I don't know. Q: What was the text about? L: The text was about living conditions here... about different... there was a guy that lived in a hut... it was like a National Geographic book more or less... Q: So the aliens were reporting on us in our own language? L: That would be speculation. Q: Okay. L: Either that or it would have been information that we compiled and gave to someone else... but whatever it was, it was certainly unusual... Q: Was the text simplistic? L: Ah... yeah. Q: What would happen if you flipped the book over? L: I'm getting to that. (LAUGHTER) L: It was very simplistic and it just showed what lived in a dwelling like that... but the same thing... as you moved the page, this guy's clothes would drop... his skin would come off his muscles... it would do that... and instead of sitting there reading most of the text, I played with the photographs... because even looking up close, I could not see... Q: Hallucinatory again. L: Yeah, you could not get to a point where it would not take place. You know, if you had a 3-D card in certain lights and certain angles it just doesn't work and you have to position it right, but no matter how this was, if you tilted it a certain way, it worked... and to me I was fascinated by that. The book had two front covers... if you flipped the book over, this is where the stuff about Zeta Reticuli and other stuff would come from, cause now this seemed like, though it was just a few pages that dealt with the alien craft, and origin and so on and so forth, but not nearly in the detail of the other. Q: Probably there was some... I'm going to guess... probably you could connect that to a period of cooperation that ended with these people getting killed. That there was some level of cooperation, the aliens were trying to prove that they had been around a long time... showing pictures they'd taken... L: How can there possibly... yeah, but I don't know... how can there be? Q: Would that fit in though, if that were the truth? Would that make sense out of this book? L: Yeah, it's possible, but... Q: I mean... here's a spacecraft... here's a coloring book... L: But what... aliens sitting down with humans exchanging pictures... that sounds ridiculous. Q: Well, they had autopsies, so they had aliens at one time... dead or alive... they could well have found them and shot them... L: You can speculate forever about all the ramifications... Q: Were there any other texts that suggested dialogues between the government and the aliens... L: No. No, but in that alien section... that I call the alien section 'cause it dealt with them, is we were always referred to as containers. Q: So it definitely was written from an alien point of view... L: No doubt about that. Q: So aliens referred to us as containers... what were they saying about us as containers? L: I don't know. What left the impression... it said nothing about it... but the way I looked at it was... biological containers... almost like culture dishes... now that's just the impression I got from reading it though it said nothing like it... it was almost... containers of genetic material. Q: Were they suggesting that they were... L: No... there was no suggestion about anything... not that anyone was doing experiments... nothing like that... and I actually looked for something like that... but it was so neutral... it was edited to be so neutral that you really couldn't grasp anything out of it. But it was just the context of which it was stated. Q: In my conversations on this, and I do admit that I have to be careful, because I've been thinking about it a lot while I've been working on something else... I've come under the impression, it may have been from other material I've been reading, that they... that there was some information that the aliens were suggesting they'd been manipulating through genetics... L: Well, that was... Q: That was in this book. L: Yeah, now some of that was conjecture... because it lead me to believe... Q: I'm not saying we're going to present any of this that's not conjecture... what's interesting about the story is you have some solid things you've seen... and some things that fucked you up if you guessed in a period when you were heavily (UNCLEAR)... I'm not going to suggest that you hallucinated these things... but it's all part of the real canvas of this story that is compelling. The fact that you read something of that nature... L: Yeah, of the nature... but there are lots of "if's" here... cause you have to step back even... because... are containers actually people... is number one? Because at no point in there did it say -- containers are humans... okay? So... immediately you're on unsteady ground... Q: I can present all of this portion of information with you in your most anxious state towards the end of the story... talking to your friend, Gene, saying just what you're saying to me here... L: Right. Q: Gene would be me saying... And you'll say... but that's conjecture... because you're a scientist... L: Right. Q: And Gene can say... well, what else can it be? I don't know. That's the way to dramatize some of these things I find compelling... that I would like to deal with... L: My point was... there was nothing that directly related interaction with humans verbatim... that said that... the interaction was with containers and they mentioned 65 corrections in the evolutionary process of containers... now... Q: Where did this information come from... you're not sure... I still feel that it's manipulative information in the first place... which is possible... and these are things that can be dramatized with you being passionate about, just as you are now, that's not a fact... I don't know what it means... and Gene playing the role I am of devil's advocate... L: The only thing that I've continued absolutely to stand on is the material that I read in the briefings that was corroborated by the hardware. Q: Yeah, but other than that... because this isn't a documentary... the things that were disturbing to you can be presented dramatically as things that were disturbing to you. As things that you don't want to stand on, but you did see... that are ultimately part of the greater conspiracy of some kind... true or untrue... it's either disinformation from the government itself being given to you on purpose, it's something that really happened, it's something that was really brought by aliens, who may or may not be telling the truth... there's a millions ways... the last thing I'd do is take something like this and say, oh, it must be true. I'm into the Captain Cook philosophy which is believe nobody with superior technology... L: Right, just because someone actually came from another planet, does not mean they don't know how to lie. Or have motives to do it. Q: Exactly. That's a brand new concept in cinema and to our people. And a concept that I think is a public service to present in this picture in case they do ever land on the White House lawn or in case they do decide to drop it out of whatever... airplane... and pretend they never saw one before. Because there'll be a certain amount of people that want to go worship anything out there... L: Right. Q: And I think it's a public service to show an intelligent point of view on this which is, hey, they're spaceships, which means there is somebody, but which also means that those aren't just people that have the right kind of gas... technology isn't magic. L: Right. Q: That demystification is literally how we sold this picture to New Line. I expect to dramatize it and they expect me to do so... it's part of the step forward about this picture instead of doing a tabloid. So those are details that are great, compelling details that don't present you as a non-scientist nut case that believes all this stuff. That's what's great about the character of Lear... is that I can also dramatize the opposite end of the spectrum and your attitude towards a person like that... that this is not who you are... it's a great contrast to your character and it's still fascinating that I could sit here today or tomorrow and probably not convince you of something I think might be truly an abduction case... and you've seen these saucers... I think that that's great... part of the reason I personally knowing you so fascinating. Where there any other artifacts or anything that bizarre that you came across in these briefings? You know what I want to do... let's stop now... because we're all tired and I got what I wanted with this arc... one complete arc with this story and additions or corrections... character.... END OF TAPE 4 -- SIDE A SIDE B -- BLANK | | S4 - THE ROBERT LAZAR STORY TAPE 5 - SIDE A Q: Questions L: Lazar Q: Bob, can we start... this will take us in a little bit of a sequitus route, but can we talk about Knapp and you're first contact with him and how the television report went and things like this? Where does he come into the picture? L: Actually, at the very end of everything. It was that day that they had set up the mobile satellite link... Q: Who actually made the first contact with him? L: With George Knapp? Q: Yeah? L: I think John Lear did. Q: At your request? L: Yeah. Q: And John knew him or John knew of him? L: John had done other interviews with him before... other television interviews... so they kind of knew each other. And that's how, essentially, the meeting started. Q: Were you talking on the phone to George Knapp at all before you actually did the... L: No. Q: No contact with him at all. So you had never even seen him... L: No... I hadn't seen him, in fact the entire interview with backlight... as not to show my face. And they used a pseudo name... in fact the pseudo name under me was Dennis. And that was kind of a dig at Dennis... really it just happened like that... it aired in the middle of the news and... Q: Six o'clock news? L: Five o'clock. Q: Five o'clock news... but, now did you... when was it taped... or was it live? L: It was live. Q: So the incident when someone shot at you was just before that? L: Right. Q: The same day? L: I believe there was a day in delay there. Q: Okay. We'll come back and talk about the shooting that was so interesting... L: If I can just comment... no, I guess we'll talk about that when we get... Q: No, comment... L: Okay, as far as commenting about the shooting... now, although it's incredibly coincidental... no one says that it was anyone from S4, any government official... is it possible that it was a random drive-by shooting that occurs so much in big cities like this? It's possible. Especially, considering I was playing with him more or less in the car, maybe he got pissed off and fired out the window... so... there again, it's one of those things that... I don't know for absolute sure, but it's a tremendous coincidence that at that time... that particular hour of that day, when I started on the phone and went down to Gene's office... I'm going from here to see... to get in contact with George Knapp... so on and so forth... that that occurred... so there's no specific... Q: Take me through that conversation with Gene where you stated on the phone what time you were going to be there. So that I can reconstruct it accurately... L: From what I remember... I think Gene was suggesting that I go ahead and do it, because he knew that John Lear knew George Knapp. So, I think I finally agreed and decided to drive to John's place... to talk to John. Q: Did John know you were coming? L: Yeah. Q: You called him? L: Umm-hmm... actually through this entire scenario, John only pops up two or three times. He's really not a main player in there... I don't know if I've got it across that way... Q: Yeah, you did express that. But you called him up and said you were coming to... did you say why you were going? L: I think Gene had spoken to him directly and might have filled him in. Q: So you said something like... I'd like to see you... L: Yeah... and something to the effect that, I understand that you know George Knapp or can get hold of him... maybe it would be possible to talk to him today. Q: When you made that call, did you use your phone? Or a phone outside...? L: I really don't remember. I think I called from Gene's office, but I can't remember. Q: So you left Gene's office to talk to John Lear... L: Right. Q: And that's when it happened... it happened on which... L: Charleston Boulevard on ramp. Q: Did you file a police report? L: No. Q: Was there a bullet in your car? L: Yeah. And in the tire. We looked for the one in the tire, we couldn't find... but there was entry by the rim. I thought the tire had caught it, but then I did drive all the way home, so it probably ejected itself... Q: Did you think about making a police report? L: Yeah I really did. In fact, I have people periodically drop film off here... some of the other real estate appraisers... there are little boxes outside... and I was in the driveway and one of them, Nancy Clark, who just works up the street here, had come by right after it had happened... now she knew nothing about all this other stuff... but I had commented on it, you know, how come the police aren't here... so on and so forth... and I don't know why I didn't... I probably should have... but I guess the reason I didn't was because eventually, after talking to the cops, no matter what, you're going to have to tell them entire story to connect everything together and it was just an unbelievable and impossible task at the time. And it just wouldn't have made sense... because eventually the questioning was going to get down to, well who would want to shoot you and this and that... well, the government's after me... oh, really... it just would not have been possible. Q: What happened that night? L: I didn't stay home that night. Q: You were alone... L: Yeah. Q: Where did you go? L: I think at that time I stayed at the hotel up off the strip... the Budget Inn. Q: What did you feel like that night... do you remember? L: I can't remember specifically. There were too many things that were going through my mind. Q: Did you think about packing it in... leaving town? Getting out of here? L: No, that never really occurred. There were too many thoughts going through my mind... because all that... everything else had happened just before that and I don't know... there were just too many thoughts going through my mind... there was nothing specific to lock onto... believe it or not, I mean, the shooting was not a real high priority... it was just in the stack. Q: Were you afraid you were going to die? L: No... I was just at a level of saturation where nothing really mattered at that point. I mean at that time I was probably thinking more along the lines of my wife and what was going on at that point than anything else. Q: Your wife wasn't in the house? L: No. Q: Had she moved out or was she just out that night? L: She was just out. Q: What did she say when you told her about this? L: I really don't remember. Q: But you did tell her? L: I really don't remember... it's kind of a blur. Q: Listen, I understand... I understand exactly... some of these things... simply because everything you can tell me is important for me to know so that I can reconstruct this perfectly. If I ask you something which makes you uncomfortable... don't tell me. Or, if you can't remember, we'll fit the pieces together as best we can. So, I'm going to ask you all kinds of things that most people wouldn't remember... L: Well, I'll certainly make that distinction... so far there's already been quite a few things I can't remember. Q: The next day, you woke up in the Budget Hotel... uneventful night? L: Uneventful night. Q: Who did you call from the Budget Hotel? L: No one... just came home and went and did my normal rounds of work. Q: Did you talk with John Lear that night or with Gene? L: Oh, probably with Gene. I spoke to Gene all the time. Gene I spoke to several times a day, every day. Q: Did he tell you to go to the police, or anything like that? L: No. Q: He probably told you to get out of the house. L: Yeah. Q: You've got the contact now with John Lear where you're going to set up the meeting with George Knapp... L: That actually occurred in John Lear's driveway... Q: You drove over there? L: Yeah. Q: Alone or with Gene... do you remember? L: I drove there with Gene, yeah. Q: Okay. (GLITCH IN TAPE -- MACHINE TURNED OFF AND ON?) L: And the truck pulled up... Q: So John already knew... L: Yeah, John was updated on what had happened when I got there. Q: Bob, I'm missing one little step here. You were going to see John Lear... let's follow the night of the shooting night... you were going to see him to talk about doing a story with George Knapp... L: Right. That's when he was updated on everything. Q: But you didn't see him that night? L: George Knapp? Q: John Lear... the night of the shooting... L: No, John Lear I saw... George Knapp I did not... Q: So after the shooting you saw John Lear? L: Yeah. Q: Good. L: I tried to get hold of George and could not... so... Q: So the next day you went over. L: Right... and he had stuff set up. Q: At John Lear's house? L: Right. Q: How did you feel about talking to a TV guy that you didn't know? L: Well, I'd never done it before... I saw kind of nervous and I didn't... I really didn't know if it was the right decision, so it was kind of a compromise... and they said, well, we'll film it in silhouette and we won't use your name... as if... they didn't change my voice or anything... so it was a very obvious... Q: Were you afraid you might go to jail? L: Ahh... that had crossed my mind, but it didn't weigh heavily on my mind because... as you know with the clearance, there's that 10/10 provision in there... ten years of jail... ten thousand dollar fine for divulging secret information, but they really couldn't... I mean, what could they say... in order for them to prosecute me on that, it would have to be... they would have to admit that all this... and that was absolutely out of the question, so I felt relatively safe as far as that was concerned... but... jail was not a real worry, it was more a worry of... I was more worried about not doing anything... and, I don't know if you've ever been in that mode where... well, here's a good analogy... maybe it's a poor analogy... you know if you're in traffic and you're not going anywhere... you can get extremely frustrated... though you may be going just a short distance on a straight road, and if it's not moving, you can take a whole bunch of side streets that will take exactly the same amount of time, but you're moving... it doesn't matter... at least something's happening to occupy your brain and you'd get there at the same time and that's... so, maybe it's a poor analogy... it's exactly what I felt... I may not be doing the right thing, but something is happening... I'm not sitting at home waiting for something to act on me... I'm acting and all I felt was, maybe it was a need for control cause there was so much happening behind the scenes that I wasn't aware of, I wanted to initiate something... so I felt compelled to do something. Q: When you went to talk with George Knapp was part of that due to the fact that you were afraid for your own safety? L: Oh, yeah. Sure. Q: How did George Knapp handle this? L: Well, George Knapp was on the air in the middle of the news and he just, essentially, cut in and said this is... we have someone from the test site... blah, blah... says the government is hiding certain things and that his life may be in jeopardy, or something like that. So he just cut in and out and, as far as how did he handle it... later on in the broadcast, him and the other anchor person were talking and George was very interested and he kept bringing it up... bringing it up throughout the newcast... but George Knapp had no idea who I was... so... Q: And he did that based on the conversation he had with John Lear... L: Right. You've got to ask Gene about that, I guess. Because I don't know if Gene or John spoke to George Knapp and who really updated him on everything, I really don't know. Q: What happened then... how long was it on the air? Sixty seconds... a couple minutes... do you remember? L: Ahhh... I do have the tape somewhere... Q: I've seen a copy of it... L: It's... they ask a few questions... I'd say a couple minutes... maybe four minutes or so? Q: How did you feel when it was over? L: Relieved... Q: You were at John Lear's house and the remote drove away and you went on home? L: Yeah, that was it. Q: Then what happened? L: Then was the call from Dennis... it was as soon as I got home... and he said the only thing that he said was... do you have any idea what we're going to do to you now? And I said, no. And that was the end of the conversation. Q: (UNCLEAR -- too soft to make out) L: Yeah, after that, yeah. Q: (UNCLEAR -- again, too soft) L: That was sometime afterwards... and he wanted to meet at the Union Plaza Hotel. Q: How many weeks or months, roughly, after that? L: I can't even remember... that's a calendar question. Q: But things had been pretty quiet... when he called up that time, or was there a reason that he may have called up? You said yesterday that things quieted down? L: Yeah, things quieted down after that... and some time had gone by... maybe a month and he called and I had the impression that he wanted... it was just a one on one thing... he wanted to talk about something... obviously about the situation or something... but disconnected from everyone else. And that meeting went sour and that was the last I ever heard of him. Q: What kind of contact did you have with George Knapp after that first remote interview? L: After that, some time after that, I don't remember how long, George wanted to meet me and I finally agreed and he came down with himself and the head of the network... or TV station and we talked about it... and he wanted to do a more indepth report of what was going on out there, 'cause from what I understand he had been working on some story or investigating strange things out there... and that's when I met him and talked to him for a little while and shortly after that he had been compiling all this data to do an expose on TV. Q: Did he ever show it on TV? Was it on TV? L: Yes. Q: So what happened to him at the station where he worked? Did he leave or was he... I know that he's not there anymore... do you know anything about it? L: No... his thing was kind of a big hit... he did it over a week period and he got a lot of responses and that's where he got a lot of the contacts 'cause he kind of made a plea to people... anyone else that has any information about this, contact him... and that's where he got some people who would only talk to him off the record... so on and so forth... Q: Did he ever share any of that with you? L: Yeah. Q: What did you think of it... what did you think of what you saw? L: Oh, a lot of it was interesting, but... Q: Did it have anything to do with S4? L: Yeah... some people did. Q: So he actually knows some people that... or he spoke with people who... L: He's spoken with people that have been... most have worked at Area 51 and knew of the existence of the place... and knew of alien craft there... people who had shuttled people back and forth... mostly retired people... purposely not... speaking off the record, essentially, to protect their pensions and what not... he also later met some other people... Senate investigators, and things like that, who also were very suspicious about what was going on down there and back budget investigators... a guy named DiAmatto, for one, who later became assets in tracking stuff down... actually, because that interview kind of got all over the place... attracted the attention of a lot of people that... investigative committees headed by... what's his name, yeah, John Glenn became interested... I mean, it attracted a lot of people that were kind of in to that more or less. Edgar Mitchell, the sixth man on the moon, came down and spoke to me at length and said, I guess the astronauts have their own little clique... group... apart from NASA, and again they said, off the record, we kind of know something's going on, but... Q: Mitchell said that? L: Yes. And he came down here with his wife and was interested in all of the particulars... because they were just collecting information about what was going on behind closed doors. And he had lots of good contacts... in addition to people that managed to contact me directly, but most people didn't know how... so they came through George. Q: In this time period, after you'd talked to George Knapp for the first time, and after that story went out... can you tell me a little bit about the contacts that you may have been exposed to... people phoning you up... were there any strange phone calls... were there people trying to meet you? L: Oh, yeah. Q: Were any of those things particularly memorable because they struck you as being odd or burdensome or something that you didn't. want to talk... how did you feel about all that? L: Well, unfortunately, a good portion of them were kooks, or at least that's what I labelled them as... Q: What'd they say....? L: Oh, some were absolutely insane... they called themselves... The Mercury Workers... the nuclear test site is in Mercury, Nevada, and they said, well they think a bunch of their co-workers are being held down at S4 and would I get together with this group and plan a break-out and... I mean, these guys were kooks... I mean, ridiculous things... a couple silly things like that stuck out... most of it was other news agencies... or Oprah and Geraldo and CNN... I mean everyone in the entire world lit up... Q: Did you see any of those people? L: No, I turned down interviews with everybody... and it went over the UPI and... Q: Now... help me understand your motivation... even though I personally applaud that... they were probably willing to pay you good money... L: Yeah, they were. But that was not my intention to do the interview... to do an interview to... it's hard to describe... that is not... it's not the way I wanted it presented and I was doing it actually for more of a selfish reason... I know it's unfair not to release all of the information to the scientific community and so on and so forth, but really the main reason was I was afraid for what was happening to me... and I felt that the best way was if this is in the public eye, if... certainly if anything suddenly happened to me, the light is now cast on the test site and what's going on... how come this guy just went on TV and said there's all this strange stuff happening and he disappears or he's being harrassed or something... that was the main reason for doing it... and with that being taken care of... there was no reason to go completely national and Hollywood and, if anything, that was going to discredit the message I was trying to get across, because... well, you know what happens when you go on those shows and what they do to stories... they turn them around and sensationalize everything and that would... that was just not my intention. Q: I read something about you going to a... was it a UFO conference here in Las Vegas? Tell me about that. How did you feel about that? L: Well, I guess it was curiosity... I wanted to see what... well, which UFO conference? Q: Tell me about as many as you can remember... L: Well, one was pretty dated... all this other... this was shortly after I had started telling Gene, before the shit hit the fan, more or less... and became interested in what all these people knew. And we went to a UFO conference here in town and it was, essentially, what I thought it would be like. Q: In one of the hotels? L: Yeah, I mean, crazy people. Q: Were they wearing costumes and stuff? L: Some lady said she was from Venus and she typically comes down here and... because she wants her kids to be educated here and, I mean, it was truly ridiculous... Q: What else sticks in your mind? People are wierd and that's great... if I can just take a snapshot and write about them... because I can't think of this stuff... L: Well, these people were absolutely dead serious and they'd have speaker after speaker... one guy, Bill Cooper, was talking about how there were bases on the moon and Mars... we'd been there since the '50's... shuttling back and forth... these big mining operations going on... Q: Now this is after you've seen the spacecraft... L: Right. So this was particularly entertaining for me. Q: And you're now... does Gene know that you've seen this spacecraft? L: Yeah. (PHONE RINGS -- MACHINE TURNED OFF AND ON) Q: So this is in one of the hotels... you're walking through there with Gene... has Gene seen... have you gone out to the desert with Gene yet? L: Yeah... yeah. Gene has seen some of the test flights... heard really all I had to say... Q: Now, this is the first UFO conference... L: Yeah. Q: Did you talk with anyone there? Did you look for anyone? L: No, I just looked around and... kind of with a superior attitude... really knowing what was going on and just glancing at the material... they were selling books and all kinds of things... Q: This was all stuff that you had been exposed to... and just didn't want to have anything to do with the stuff anyway. L: Right. Q: Was there anything there... at this first UFO conference that struck you as close to the mark? L: Ahh... one was... well, one was... the drawings they had of the aliens themselves... which was the only thing that ever made me think, well maybe someone really was abducted at one time... because were would they have come up with an accurate representation? Q: They corresponded to the pictures in the autopsy report? L: Yes... reasonably well. As far as all these other scenarios and stories that were made up... everything was beyond ridiculous... they were showing tapes of the Kennedy assassination and the person commenting on it, he said... his whole point was the driver shot Kennedy... and the driver turns around and you can see that... and the driver does turn around, but they're saying... look at the gun in his hand, he's shooting him and it was because Kennedy was going to reveal the UFO secret as soon as he left Dallas... and it was really funny... it was a really entertaining day... and the lady from Venus... who I just had to talk to... and it was just a taunt... essentially... I said, well, how did you get back from Venus... oh, my spacecraft was parked over here... I said, did you wear these clothes... oh, yeah... this is how we dress... you know, it's 800 degrees on Venus and it's a sulphuric acid atmosphere... well, this is special acid-resistant and it's high temperature material... I said, can I light some of it... no, no, it's not resistant to earth flames... so, anything you could come up with, they made it sillier... but she was dead serious and I actually think she's believes it, so it was kind of entertaining... oh, the other thing was, the Billy Meier stuff... supposedly there was a Swedish farmer in the '70's, who had made contact with spacecraft or aliens or something like that and had taken some really good pictures and one of the pictures they had was... looked exactly like the Sport Model that I had worked on... which was amazing to me... Q: What did you think when you saw that? L: I thought, number one, that he didn't meet any aliens... I thought what was going on was this disc, at that time, was still being tinkered with... and what he was seeing was some of our guys on a test flight somewhere... Q: But in Sweden? L: Yeah, he's Swedish. Q: What did Gene say when... Q: Gene had seen one... he'd just seen the lights... L: Right... of course, he didn't see it in the detail I did, a glowing disc that shape, but... I said, that is it... actually, it was slightly different, but I said, that is absolutely the craft and most of the UFO people... like I said before, they all have their own little scenarios and stories and they all hate each other and try to discredit each other and make up stories about one another and a lot of them hated the Billy Meier's story, I guess, because after he had these photographs out and supposedly they'd been analyzed and they weren't fake, about a year later some government officials came into his barn and broke in and, all of a sudden, found models of the craft and they said, oh, well, he made everything up... and, of course, Billy Meier contends they brought the models and put them there... there was nothing there... I wouldn't have just left them out on the floor, even if I was faking it... so it was a very controversial story, but to me, that was the only thing that rang true, ironically, the one that everyone believes in the least had a essentially the same craft that I was working on... at least the same design... Q: There was no one there though that... you didn't say, look, I have seen something... L: Oh, no, I would never have said anything to those people. Q: Time has gone by now, and you actually went back to one where people knew of you, or knew you, or... L: Well, this is years and years and years later... this was recently... Q: Tell me about that one. L: Well, what had happened was... the place that I used to watch from, where we got caught, had kind of become famous... because after I had mentioned in a later interview exactly where it was... there's a very small town next to it called Rachel, Nevada that probably has like a hundred people living there... Q: What's the name of the town again? L: Rachel. Q: Okay. L: And there was a little building called the Rachel Bar and Grill, which is like a little double-wide trailer... Q: Yeah, I've read about that... L: After that, it became... they have bus tours that go out there now... from California... people fly in and drive up to this place and they've built a giant restaurant now to like a hotel and they call it the Ale-Inn... all essentially because of that... so I became friends with the people there because they attributed all their new success and what not... unfortunately, it was also the only place someone could stay over night and watch from that area, so what had happened recently was... the power company for some reason, and I don't understand how they can do that, it's some sort of co-op deal because it's out in the middle of nowhere... they just increased the power rates up there... essentially, to make the town of Rachel go away... five fold what they originally were... and, from what I understand, they're going to fight a legal battle against them... and the little town and the Rachel Bar and Grill, which was the main thing in the town, couldn't afford to do it, so they were putting on a UFO conference more or less, to get people to come in and they were going to charge thirty or forty dollars a person to show up and hear various speakers speak so they could raise money to save their town... Q: And this was in 1992... '91... L: '93... maybe '92... nah, it was '93... I had not planned on speaking. George Knapp was going to... Gene was going to... because Gene actually relays my story better than I do, because, unlike me, he has a memory... but they did write on the poster, the little flyer that they sent around, that Bob Lazar will be in attendance... and that caused... it was a circus... I really couldn't believe it... there were droves of people deep... Q: This is outside... during the day... L: Yeah, when I drove up... Q: RV's... L: Yeah, they just swarmed me... it was unbelievable... Q: What was that like? L: It was a terrible feeling... I really knew what some famous people must feel like now... it was... I had a friend that had come up to see me and he was no more than twenty feet away and it honestly took me about four hours to get to him. Q: Did you give any interviews up there? L: Well, I had never intended to, but that day Gene's father died, so he couldn't come. George Knapp decided to go fly to Kansas... I had originally come up there just to watch and hang out and then leave... just to kind of put my two cents in there by showing up to help them out... not for any money or anything... so I got up there not knowing anything about this... and all the speakers had cancelled and I was left there and I'm listening to some of these people... well, we drove from South Carolina just to ask you a question or talk to you... and I felt so absolutely obligated to stay there and talk, so I just answered questions on a podium for about an hour and a half and left. Q: How many people were there? Couple a hundred? L: Yeah, I'd say a few hundred... maybe two or three hundred... but it was never my intention to do that and I left. Q: Did you feel uneasy doing that? I mean uneasy from a personal security... L: Oh, yeah... I had no idea who was there... there were way too many people. It just surprised me. I didn't think there would be that kind of a turnout or that kind of interest... or anything like that... so I was really anxious to leave. Q: And you told them essentially... L: No, I was so sick of telling my story, which I'd repeated so many times... I just said, I'll just answer some questions. Q: Any interesting questions that stick in your mind? L: Only the stupid questions stick in my mind. Q: Tell me some of the stupid ones... do you remember any? L: What kind of gas do the flying saucers use? Q: What did you say? L: Gas... as in gasoline... and he said, yeah. And to me it was a scream. And I said I think I came back with a snappy remark at first and then told him, well, they don't operate like that... and he didn't understand me... I guess he was just some miner or farmer or something along those lines and just couldn't compute what I was talking about. And I said it's that new Arco EC1 -- that unleaded gasoline... and everyone kind of got a laugh at that and then I talked to him directly and said, well, they don't use gas like that... it uses like a reactor... like a nuclear reactor and tried to explain it simply to him, but I don't think he really grasped what was going on. Q: Any other stupid questions? This is all great stuff by the way. L: There were some good ones... specifically everyone always asks the same question... how the disc travels in a Delta confirguration... they always want me to re-explain that... I don't know why... how space is bent and things like that... and questions like why doesn't it show up on radar. (MACHINE BEING ADJUSTED) Q: That was in '93... has anything happened since then that you would consider significant that we should know about? L: From the end of all the events up there to today? Q: Umm hmm. L: I'd say the only significant thing would have been the brothel thing... Q: The brothel hearing? L: Yeah. Q: When was that? L: Oh, boy... '92... probably '91... then again... that's a calendar thing. But the reason that was significant was for various reasons. Q: What was that all about? L: After leaving... and it still has me very suspicious... after leaving the project or not being into it any more... I went back to doing my photo business, other little things that have always worked for me and they were going good and I ran into a girl that had claimed she worked at the legal brothel that I had owned years ago and what I had done there was something unusual is that I computerized everything and it made everything run relatively smooth. What specifically... sounds ridiculous... so the girls can pretend that they know the guys, they can set up a data base and they can come in and say how's your wife, Jean, and things like that... anyway, as far as accounting and other things along those lines... and this person said they had been operating a place in town here illegally for quite some time and could I set up the same system that we had there along with some security stuff. I said, sure, that's no sweat. So for about seventy-five hundred dollars I set up and installed the computers and wrote the software for it and put up cameras down their staircase so they could see who was coming up to the door and, essentially, did that. But most of the time was spent, a couple months, just writing the software and getting into it. Now, as it turned out, and I still don't know how this chain of events happened... but, she was listed with the FBI as being an informant for the DEA for the FBI and for Metro Police. Now why was she allowed to operate and do this and where is she coming out of the clear blue sky to ask me... and I never remembered her... that's just something she claims... anyway, after I was done that was it and I left and some... about... and I kind of left abruptly cause I finished earlier than I thought I would... and I said, okay, it's done... I'll see you later... and, oh, what had happened was, this was after George had aired his expose and everything. Then someone had told us that they had hired a private investigator that was following me around at that time. Q: Who had hired? L: The rival network... channel 13... they had hired a private investigator that was following me around and was going to air, because they had... I guess channel 8 aired this thing during Sweeps Week, which is where they get their ratings evalutated, and obliterated all of the TV stations and they really disliked it... because they, too, had asked me for interviews, but I turned it down, just like everyone else. I said, what I know has been aired and there's no reason to go on with it. So there was kind of some hard feelings there. They found this stuff out... that I was doing this work on the side for them and were planning on airing a little thing, well, this UFO informant here... this is what he does in his spare time. So George decided to... he contacted me and said, what we need to do is go on the air and say it first before these people do... because it's just something stupid you've been involved in, but it's just better to say it yourself. And I said, well, that makes sense. If there're going to do it... and plus, it's another smack in the face to them. So we went ahead and did a little thing and just kind of rolled over it... like, so what have you been up to since all this stuff had happened... and I had dah-dah-dah and I've done this for a place in town among other things... and that night I guess the police were put in kind of a wierd position... so they busted the place and shortly after that they wanted to charge me with pandering... which is... essentially, pimping... so after I sat down with the police, it was just an unprecedented push to dump everything on me... this thing had records and stuff that they seized from years back and they wanted to say that I had come up with this and built the whole business up and created everything and it made no sense... they were actually pushing everything on me when they knew fine and well that this woman had this running for a long time and it doesn't matter, they said, you aided and abetted in this crime by setting up this equipment and they really triumphed it up to much more than it was and they said, well, you either admit to that or we're going to file all these charges and many more felony counts and so I was really... there was really nothing I could do... and I really was not in a mood to fight however long that was going to take and however expensive that was going to be. So I admitted to being involved and had to plead guilty to that charge and it was more or less of a plea bargain thing and they said, well, you know, you're going to have to perform community service was the only thing... ironically... well, I'll get back to that in a minute. But in all the hearings, who was in the back of the room but Thigpen... this is the guy who originally came to investigate me... who... now what... Q: Now wasn't he living in Washington at the time? L: Yeah... now what is he doing at these hearings and only the last time did I realize what was going on... has he been here... yeah... that was the guy I was telling you about... because, again, at the time there were so many things going through my mind... that's that wierd guy that was sent here everytime... that's Thigpen and what on earth is he doing here and now maybe this explains the great push to get... and maybe in there eyes it was perfect... it was on a silver platter... here's the guy that was screwing up everything for them, essentially, and now I gave it to him on a silver platter, something to discredit myself and it did work out that way perfectly. So maybe that's why everything truly came to an end. Ironically... the community service I had to perform was setting up the exact same data base for Clark County... for their Discovery Museum in town. Q: That's great. L: I guess it's okay to do it for them, but not for them. Q: Now, did you say... when you saw Thigpen there... did you say anything to him? L: No, that was impossible. It was a fairly quiet place. He's standing in the back and I couldn't, you know... Q: If he were... L: I acknowledged his existence there and he acknowledge me and that was it... Q: That's interesting. L: But every time I was done... 'cause you sit up front with your lawyer and you really can't get up and leave... much less go talk with someone, but every time we were done and I went to leave, he was always gone. So, it was extremely suspicious. Q: Well, he was probably there because people wanted to know the proceedings of the court without actually asking for or attempting to acquire a transcript. So no contact ever again with Thigpen? No contact with any of those people. You performed your community service... L: Right... that was over and done with and... Q: And it's all over... L: Right. Q: Any strange phone calls? L: No, it pretty much all... I'm wondering if I'm leaving out something, but... I don't think there was... that was the last UFO related event that had anything to do with those people and it all... that was really the end of everything. Nothing ever came of it after that. Q: I was going to say, would you surmise that Thigpen knew about the spacecraft... Or was he simply performing a... L: I don't know. Q: That's a hard one. L: I don't know. Originally, I wouldn't think that the people that originally came to my house knew what was going on... I don't know if Thigpen was a special person, but certainly by that time he had heard all of the stories and whatnot and I don't know. Q: When was the last time you saw Barry? We're just about out... L: That little light blinks... (MACHINE ADJUSTMENT) Q: I'm going to change the batteries when we're done with... L: The last time I saw Barry was the last time I was out at S4, before I went to Indian Springs and all that... I never saw him out. The only person I ever saw out of the base was Dennis. Q: Was there anybody involved with EG&G or S4 that you knew or had words with besides Dennis and Barry. L: Other than that guy Rene I had met. Q: Tell me about Rene again. L: I only spoke to him once... he was working on Project Galileo, but on some other aspect of it and was working in a lab near us and I was just introduced once and we talked for awhile... small talk nothing... Q: Did you get the impression that he stayed out there or went back and forth? L: I got the impression that he stayed out there, but I had no prove that anyone stayed out there... I never saw any sleeping quarters... though I knew there were extensive ones up at Area 51... so I don't know. Q: When you flew back or up there, the people you flew up there with were all going to some other... L: Mostly into Area 51 up there... Q: Did you ever see any of those people again or have any contact with any of those people again? L: That were on the plane with me? Q: Umm hmm. L: I don't think I ever had contact with them long enough to even recognize them if I did see them again. Q: What about any of the people... I just don't want to leave anybody out. What about any of the people that you worked with at Los Alamos? Did you ever have contact with... do you still have contact with... L: Oh, yeah... hmm hmm. Q: Now how do they relate to what's happened to you. Let me see if I can change the question a little bit. Is your friendship with them still what it was when you worked at Los Alamos or because of this series of incidents has the friendship been changed? L: It was probably strengthened. I would say. Q: Now are some of these people the same group... L: I was thinking of one in particular... Joe... that I worked with closely, who was a good friend at Los Alamos and had helped out a lot and even moved out here and started working up at the nuclear test site... we've always been close and he's always been really supportive of everything. Q: Did you work in the same area at Los Alamos with Joe? L: Yeah. Q: Can you recall... see there's a purpose for all of this... and that is... going in this picture that you have relationships... normal relationships with all kinds of different people and you're telling them about what's going on... it makes your story... even though it's credible... it makes it yet more credible... we're making it undeniable... L: It was difficult... initially Joe was still at Los Alamos and I had to do mail communication with him and countless times that Joe sent me stuff it never got here. And that's when I started sending things to Joe and I still have the little plastic bags that I saved from them... it says, received at the Post Office opened... I mean, I have several of those... from back then... it seemed like someone had gone through everything of mine. Q: When the Post Office began to give you the plastic bags with material open, that was after you left S4? That was after you were not called back? L: Yeah. Then I began sending things through Gene's office... that's the only way I communicated via mail. Q: Did you talk to him on the phone at all? L: Joe? Q: Yeah. L: Yeah. In a... even before I had actually left S4 I spoke to him a little and really couldn't say much on the phone. All we'd say was, hey, well, next time you come out, I've got a lot to tell you... and how's work going... he knew full well what was going on from my letters and then eventually he moved out here and started working up at the nuclear test site and he'd smuggle maps out of there of exactly how it's laid out so we could find the back roads... he could take and get a good vantage point from the opposite side... 'cause he'd be on the opposite side of S4 and he purposely said up there at nights and rented a room they have up at the test site... you know, government sponsored, right on the site, so he could go out at night and try and see things from the other side. And he did see (UNCLEAR) test flights, but unfortunately he was a little far away and could see nothing other than lights flashing around in the sky. Q: What happened to him when you started to get into trouble? L: Nothing. Coincidentally, right around that time, Joe moved. And disappeared. He decided to go back to school for some reason... just kind of tried of working for the government... probably partially out of frustration seeing all the stuff that was happening to me and just he had been in his job for a long time... so nothing really happened to him. Q: Left the area? L: Yeah. Moved up to Utah. Q: Did you continue to communicate with him? L: Ah... not very much... now once or twice a month. However, Jim, another friend, who was working up at another test site, where they were working on the Stealth plane up in Tonapa (sp?), now he was contacted instantaneously. Right before George Knapp's thing went on the air. Q: Tell me about that. L: Umm... Jim was there the first night where we saw the disc jump around and in fact it's his voice on the video tape... and someone at work... because there was a lot of talk about that... up in the area he was working in... and someone had recognized his voice and reported it to his superior. Now Jim was in the process of getting his Q clearance... so he had been there... for, I don't know, for how many months... I'd say about ten months... which is about how long it takes... ten... twelve months... once you start passing there... then it's am I getting my clearance or not... so, the George Knapp thing was going to air the next day and they came... Jim, being a civilian, he's working up there on the fire control systems... fire alarms... and they came and pulled him out of work... the UFI... and sat him down and interrogated him. And I hadn't really updated Jim on everything... I just gave him a kind of brief overview of what I was working on and he saw the disc tested and Jim is kind of a crazy guy... he's happy-go-lucky type of guy that will just do anything and kind of responds to authority like I do. And they essentially sat him down and said... hey, tell us about your friend Lazar, what's going on. Now do you believe all this ridiculous stuff he's been telling you... well, you'd better not and so on and so forth... and all that did was completely cement it in Jim's mind that what was going on was exactly what I was saying and I think they told him... I don't remember, you'll probably have to ask Jim, but I think they told him not to contact me anymore or something along those lines. And Jim called me from a secure phone intentionally right after the meeting and said, hey, these guys... I mean purposely... these guys just interrogated me and said blah-blah-blah... the whole nine yards and I didn't tell him I knew where you were and I know right where you're at... and all that stuff... and then Jim and I had a long talk that night and... Q: And this was before Knapp aired his... L: His long expose... yeah... the day before. And they... I really don't know... yeah, I'm sure it was the day before... Q: And Jim lives up in Utah now. L: No, that's Joe. Jim still lives here. Q: Okay, sorry. Anybody else? Am I forgetting anybody here? L: Jim, Joe, Gene... END OF TAPE 5 -- SIDE A TAPE 5 -- SIDE B Q: ... shoot the fireworks off in the desert at night... L: That's the only thing that takes precedence over everything... Q: When do you do that? L: We used to do it the weekend before the 4th of July, until Omni printed that in its article. But that is something that Jim and I started years ago... when I was twelve, when I lived in New York, they put on these big fireworks displays in the park and they let you come in and help set things up... not actually making of the fireworks, but tying the knots and setting up the framework for the ground displays and I really got a kick out of that... already being scientifically inclined... I was really fascinated with how the fireworks worked and subsequent to that I learned more about it and it was more or less of an art and all the formulas and techniques are passed down from family to family... Q: Until the family blows itself up. L: Or dies out. And some of them are very complex techniques and formulas that really have been lost and never duplicated and are recorded... it's kind of a wierd branch of chemistry... pyrotechnics, in itself. Q: It's an Italian family in New York, isn't it? L: The Grucci's (sp?)... the guy that I know died, Jimmy Grucci (sp?)... yeah, most of the Italians are the best at it. But, as time went on, I learned more about it and then the years went by, I moved around, continued kind of experimenting with stuff and learning the techniques and then joined the Pyrotechnics Guild and began to develop... everyone has their own signature colors and stuff... and some of them being very, very difficult to do and I came up with a color... double neon blue... is what I called it... and, essentially, began just doing things on my own, just for fun, because it's technically illegal to manufacture fireworks... it's kind of a gray area of the law... and so to avoid any possible legal implications and whatnot, we would go out and have a barbecue on this drylake bed... the weekend before the 4th of July, before the cops are out looking for fireworks, and later we found out that the drylake bed is on Indian land so we're safe from everything... technically not being part of the United States... however those laws work... so I began to be very knowledgeable on it and actually helped out in other firework displays and so just finally I taught a couple of friends how to start making some of the larger fireworks... and it began to escalate and we had a group of people... and then more friends... and people got into it and then finally it turned into a big fireworks show and we began putting it on every year... not really a show... but where everyone makes their own fireworks and, instead of just sitting there watching the fireworks go off, people would be like, hey, this one's mine going up and it added a lot more interest and fun to it. And then as more time went on, we started putting money into it and now we spend, on that one day, thousands of dollars... Q: Who are the guys that do this with you? L: Really, I do 90 percent of it... and I'd say just the close friends, immediate close friends and family... Jim and his girlfriend... Q: Jim's last name is... L: Tageilini... Gene... his wife... and a couple of friends... actually, we've kind of split up all the jobs that have to be done... a lot of it folding paperwork... a lot of it... the biggest time consuming part is taking these woks that you normally cook food in and we put little shotgun... smaller than bb's... shots in there and I take the various chemical compositions and make them into a powder and spray them with water and roll them around until they snowball and get bigger and you add different colors on top... so when the shells blow up you get different colors and different effects... and we spend about two or three months beforehand making all these things... and testing out different things and then the day comes... we come up with different, crazy things to do... last year... Jim's kind of a stuntman that never got to be a stuntman... he'd love to do crazy things... and last year I made him a jetpack... I made a little jet engine that he could wear on his back so he could stand on rollerskates and go across the drylake bed... Q: Did he? L: Yeah, he did. Q: How fast did he go? L: Ahh... he was moving at a pretty good clip... I don't know... Q: Guess... thirty, forty... L: Forty-five... fifty... he was moving pretty good. Just crazy things... A big barbecue and everyone just gets around and drinks and... Q: Jon was telling us something about a balloon or a camera and a balloon? L: Oh, that's one of this year's things that we're doing is we've got a bunch of... each year we make a tape of everything that happens... Q: Do you have any of those tapes? L: Oh, yeah, sure... Q: Can I at some point trouble you to see them? Because this is something that's got to be in the picture... L: ... that particular Desert Blast was an interesting one. Q: That's what it's called a Desert Blast? L: Yeah, in that it was right after everything that had happened... and everyone was so afraid... that here are all of Bob's friends in one place at one time... that so few people showed up it was eerie... now normally we're talking an event that years ago... eight years ago started out with six or seven people and a couple of years ago we had three hundred and fifty... Q: What year did you have three hundred and fifty? '88? L: It wasn't this year, but the year before... '91. It had gotten to such tremendous proportions... now we keep the date secret, because we had three airplanes land on the drylake... people getting out... it was an event... and what really ended it that year was it got so out of hand there were hundreds of people I didn't know... and that didn't know me... and it was my event and where some drunk guy had come up to me that year and I was in the way of whatever he wanted to do and he had the gall to ask me who invited me... which I thought was great... and I said, well, that's it... and now we've purposely cut it down and try to keep it between fifty and a hundred people and people we know and are friends and we can all sit together and have a barbecue and go crazy and watch... Q: That's great... L: In fact, while we're talking, I'll just let a tape run and you can see... (MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON) L: ... something happened with the brothel and all that... of course all the TV hoopla had aired already and the prosecutor thought, this is great, because we're really going to discredit the guy and make him look like a lunatic... he believes in flying saucers and so on and so forth... so they convinced the judge to do a psychiatric report on me that he had intended to use against me... look this guy's a idiot and so on and so forth... so they had an independent group of people give me a psychological analysis and it backfired tremendously on them, because it came back... well, this is the original copy... Q: Jon mentioned this in the airplane coming up... he said that there'd be an MMPI -- Minnesota (sp?) multi-phasic personality inventory... L: Yeah... that's right. Q: It's just amazing what you can tell from a line. L: It's amazing because there's a lot of stuff that you really don't know about yourself until... like in response to authority... he shows tendency to get people to (UNCLEAR) and then resist them... which I always thought was funny, because when I first read that I thought that was ridiculous... but you know I actually caught myself doing that... getting everyone riled up and until they come back and say... okay, let's do it and... nah... I don't want to. I think that's really strange. It really does reveal some of your interesting quirks. Q: It does, but then again it doesn't, because some times they draw completely the wrong conclusions. Can I make a copy of this... L: You can take that with you... Q: May I... and I'll send it back you. L: Yeah, that's fine. But don't make copies... I mean, that is kind of personal. Q: It's good you said that. (MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON) L: ... I hated to sit down and (UNCLEAR)... I wanted to climb around and get dirty and, you know, hook wires together and do everything... from making up the refrigeration to the alignment to everything... so I was frequently just crawling around on top of everything... Q: Is there a time when they actually give a command to fire them in the accelerator? L: Well, the accelerator... they don't shut it off. Once they shut it off, things cool down and the alignment all goes to hell... so it's running and they have plugs at each of the exits... they call them beam (sp?) plugs... but before you fire it... you energize the big things like the super conducting magnets and things like that... and you get on the intercom -- Area B is where we were... and you essentially announce, Area B, standby for Hera (sp?)... Hera was the super conducting magnet we used to be energized... Q: What's the name of the magnet? L: Hera... they named all of the magnets after women... I have no idea why. (LAUGHTER) L: Because there were spectacular accidents that occurred with the magnets... Q: Any that you saw? L: I only saw little ones... the great ones I always missed. You know, those big gas cyclinders that weigh a lot... I imagine are a hundred and fifty pounds... they had outside of the area... again, a garage type door, a line marked where the field of the magnet extended and if you had a pocketknife... in your hand... it will pull it through your bones until it comes out the otherside... there's no if, ands, or buts... these were some of the most powerful magnets on earth and a guy... cause I came in one day and the target and everything we had set up... this delicate... months of work... obliterated... there's nothing there anymore... and a guy... the pushcart that carried the... or handtracks... that carried the cyclinders have a chain that goes around them... you lock off so the cyclinder can't fall out. This guy didn't have the chain on... and he walked in through the area and the cyclinder just lept... cause it was an aluminum cart so as to be non-magnetic... and he should have been carrying the cyclinder, but the cyclinder was steel and it lept and flew in the air like a torpedo and the magnet was donut shaped and in the center on the target the beam fired out and this thing just blasted through there and oscillated back and forth destroying everything... just hung up in the center and broke the edge of the magnet... a very spectacular thing... and I didn't get to see that. I saw little things like... from clear across the room... a nut fly near the speed of sound by my head and things like that... but nothing as spectacular as that. Q: How long did you work there? L: Ahh... two years... three years... Q: Now that was out of school that you went to work there... or did you... L: No... I always went to school as I was working. Q: Were you in school when you were there? L: No... not when I went to Los Alamos... I was... I had left California at Fairchild Electronics and I was going to CalTech in Pasadena there and so I left Fairchild... applied at Los Alamos. Q: Now when you filled out the paperwork... L: Do you mind if I eat in front of you? Q: Oh... please eat. When you filled out your paperwork for your clearance... L: Where? Q: Los Alamos... which that paperwork, most assuredly, was passed on to the EG&G folks... L: Sure. Q: Same paperwork... same government agencies looking at the paperwork... on that were all the information that had to be erased to begin to make you a non-person... tell me about your personal files disappearing... records of you... L: The reason I found that out... was because of George Knapp... after I told him, that's when he went back and started investigating everything... Q: Who you were? L: Umm... hmm... the first thing was that... Los Alamos has no record of you ever being employed there... and I said, well, that's interesting... I went to school, Fairchild... even the previous address... there was nothing anywhere... he said, I can't verify anything... I said, well, that's not possible. He said I can't even verify that you lived in Los Alamos... and I said, now that's ridiculous... so I found an old phone book and said, see, that's me... and some friends that worked there and for Los Alamos... Q: Some people came forward from Los Alamos and said, yeah, you worked here? L: Yeah. What else disappeared? Q: What college records disappeared? L: All of them... except for Pierce College... and I don't know why... Pierce College I was just at for a short time... Q: Is Pierce in... L: Woodland Hills... California... Q: There's another Pierce, I believe in New Hampshire... L: Right after I left high school I went into Pierce cause I wasn't sure where I wanted to go... Q: High school records still around? L: No... I think the high school records have suddenly reappeared... as have many other ones... Los Alamos, who denied everything continuously, even when George presented them with look at all the stuff, Bob worked here, and they said, well, maybe he worked for a sub-contractor or something... the people that originally denied all of that... have moved on at Los Alamos... and recently... now we're talking five years later... George again re-submitted all that and what I had said about Los Alamos... and my entire story... and George has this in writing from Los Alamos, they said, apparently everything Bob Lazar said is true, from what we can see here... so whatever records... whatever people were involved in that have now moved on and it didn't pass down... so... as far as... the Los Alamos thing is the thing that suprised me the most... because there were so many... that was so recent... there were so many people there.... how can they deny that I even lived in the town... it was ridiculous... it was really ridiculous... Q: Was it George Knapp that came up with the W2 form from Naval Intelligence? L: No, that I got... I can't remember exactly how that transpired... someone must have called me... because I didn't call them... I don't remember how that started... Gene will remember. Q: But that was only a small amount of money on that... L: Well, it was... however the conversation originally started... whoever was contacted... they were asking me about something and I said, well, I never got my W2 form and they said well, you should have contacted us before... and I didn't want to say, well, I didn't know who you guys were... what was going on... and I said... do you have a copy of it there... now, this is when everything... and he said, yeah, it's right in front of me and I said, well, can you send me a copy? And what that original W2 form was, I was told during the interview that the first check would be retro-active through the investigation period... which is all that first check was for... which was just the time the interviews and any other time I spent... that was not actual for any work time... and that was the only one he had on file in front of him... so, he went ahead... Q: So that was '88. L: Yeah, so he went ahead and sent that to me... whoever that guy was. Q: Now in '89... how did they pay you? L: Check. Q: Cash the check and the check's gone... check from EG&G... L: No... EG&G had nothing to do with them... there were no EG&G personnel in that building... all Naval Intelligence did was use the planes and the building for rendezvous... EG&G personnel were not allowed out at S4... Q: Who's name was on the check? L: Department of Naval Intelligence... which started a big controversy, too, because supposedly there is no Department of Naval Intelligence... there's only an Office of Naval Intelligence... but strangely enough the guys on the model company... the Testor company... John Andrews... was real... cause they're military modelers and they have all the military connections... he became very interested in that and began to trace down that and actually found an address and a zip code in Washington that went to a Special Department of Naval Intelligence and that zip code matched the zip code on my W2 form... and that's how the model guys became interested... and there were other people that began to check IRS records. And, at that time, I was giving carte blanche to check everything... before everything got carried away and everyone decided to pry into my life... I gave people written authorizations to go through my IRS records and they would go up to 1986 and everything was blank after that... there was no contributions to anything... there were no deposits... there was no employment... no anything... the guy that did that was Bob Ekler (sp?) and still has the correspondence with the IRS... so on and so forth. Q: What about now... are there records now? L: Yeah, actually the records now start with right after I kind of came back to the real world. There's just a big gap there. Also, at the same time, George Knapp was still investigating everything. So he filed countless freedom of information act requests... well, we know I worked at Los Alamos... had Q clearance... let's see some of the investigations... let's see anything... any of the files... so, to this day, they say there are no files on me and never have been, which is impossible... absolutely impossible to believe, so some well known occurrences that George knew of... that have been documented before... he'd seen other things about them... he also filed information requests on and they said they couldn't find any of that stuff either... so... someone was intentionally preventing information from reaching certain people and it was apparrently on a federal level... so... it was a really screwy time trying to track things down. It's not like anything re-appeared all at once, but just, I think the things just moved on... years later, after requesting the same things that had been requested almost literally tens of times prior, they said, here you go, what's the problem... Q: That's right. Because you've been apparently discredited. The files that you were reading at S4, I can remember a figure of 130... L: A hundred and twenty-one... Q: Hundred and twenty-one... the files were thick... thin... fat... wide...? L: Two or three pages... very few were thick. Q: Off the top of your head can you, in your first sit-down in that room, can you tell me the names of some of the files that you were reading or that... L: There were no names... Q: There were no names... L: They were all a little darker than that... just navy blue paper folders... with no title and they start in the middle of nowhere... it looked like they were actually extracted from another report. And I even recall the first couple reports I pulled out... I wasn't sure if it was a mistake or not... they left pages out... till I started looking at other ones. Q: The files that you looked at the first time were about... just generally... I'll tell you why I'm asking... I'm going to look for a progress in the information that they were giving to you. L: It was basically dealing with the propulsion system... there was a definite progression. Because initially, I don't think initially, I can't remember because all those days, you know, have gone together... but I don't think initially there was even a mention of recovered craft... they just spoke strictly about the reactor or... Q: And when you were reading about this reactor, this sounded to you like something we were... L: We were developing... because it was just a very brief overview of what was going on... how gravity could be manipulated and the power levels involved and how the field... Q: And it all made sense to you? L: It all made sense to me... of course, in my mind, I thought, boy, have we come far from what... I thought I was on the cutting edge of science here... how could this have possibly gone on? Q: What did you think when you saw the autopsy report? Let me ask that question a different way... did... were there photographs? L: Yeah. Actually the autopsy report we're talking about was two photographs with notations on the bottom... this is what I've called the autopsy report. Q: Do you recall what the notations said? L: Yeah. They were mostly weights and measures. One was an upper torso... of the creature... Q: On a slab? L: Yeah, on a table. And they had cut the chest open in a T fashion and peeled it back... and there was a separate inset on the photograph of... you know how fresh liver looks like it's liquid almost? Q: Umm hmm... L: There's one organ that apparently does everything and later... the other photograph... that organ itself was cut open and there were separate chambers... kind of a whole bunch of things were together. But I think they were essentially pulled out of some autopsy report or other report... just to show me what the creatures looked like themselves... so it wasn't a full body picture. Q: What were you thinking about when you saw that? Now you haven't seen the spacecraft yet, have you? L: No... that true. Q: Maybe you had seen the spacecraft, but you thought it was one of ours... L: Yeah, I had already come in the door that time and looked into the spacecraft... yeah, because that occurred on the second day and there's no way I saw those reports on the second day. Q: Okay. L: I know when I saw those photographs there was no doubt in my mind that we were dealing with alien technology... by that time I had already begun to realize what was going on... Q: Black and white pictures... L: Yeah... 8x10 glossies with a white border around them... Q: Nothing else... just two photographs and... you got the impression it was done there or somewhere else? L: I didn't get an impression. Q: (UNCLEAR) said, when we were coming up at one point, you felt like crying... either when you were near the craft or when you came... began to become aware of what all of this meant. L: Ahh... maybe he's talking about when I went into the craft for the first time. Q: Tell me about that. L: It was like... I don't know... I know I didn't say I felt like crying... Q: This was the second time, right... L: Yeah, when I actually walked inside... like I said before, it's an ominous feeling, but I don't know how to describe it... there are no words in my vocabulary that I can explain this with... Q: You were all alone? L: No... no... and there were other people in the craft, but I just blotted them out of my mind... it was such an eerie feeling... the feeling was that... it sounds stupid... the feeling was that I shouldn't be in there... that we shouldn't be in there... a feeling of trespassing... a feeling... because it felt so unbelievably alien... no pun intended, but there was nothing that seemed familiar at all... and whether... you can walk into a room and anything may seem familiar... where two walls go together... subconsciously... but everything, to the last detail, things that you might subconsciously see, such a tremendous amount of metal with no seams... with no right angles... the color... there is no color in there... everything is one color essentially... a giant stainless steel injection mold... everything seemed so absolutely unusual... kind of what makes hospitals seem so strange... because they're so different... white... empty... it's an unusual place... but a thousand times that... also, of course, in the back of your mind knowing what it is... you didn't fit right in there, because you have to hunch down... so you know it wasn't even made for people... and, in the back of your mind, you're wondering... now how was the thing acquired... and hopefully it was not with force... because somebody's going to come and get us back... all this going through your mind, but there was no excitement or exhilaration... because that's what everyone asked and everyone automatically assumed, but that feeling was absolutely not there whatsoever... it was when the craft lifted off the ground. And maybe I was more at ease about it... or the fact that I was just separated from it, but it was very disturbing and, I don't know, I was depressed... I can't... do you kind of see what I'm saying? Q: Exactly. L: Boy, I really wish I could relay that, but I can't. Q: You did a good job. You were in there for a couple of minutes? L: Actually, a little while... went inside and I looked around... Q: Who were you with again? L: Dennis... Q: Okay. L: And... I think Barry stayed in the lab. Q: Dennis said he wanted you to see something. L: No, that was for the test... Q: That's right. L: The flight test. He wanted to show me, because we were going to be dealing with the amplifiers themselves... how they hung in the lower portion of the disc and there's a hexagonal shaped grid on the floor... that's kind of a crawl space... well, for them it's a crawl space... for me you could squeeze in there... and it was a tinsel (?) brilliant hole... you know you can buy a six pack of beer or soda pop... more specifically beer... actually take the bottles out and just the box... even if you push on opposite corners it goes completely flat... but it's strong the other way, obviously cause the cardboard is standing up... this was thin sheet metal... all made in hexagons... so it was a honeycomb and there was a hole cut out in the corner and you could walk on... cause it was incredibly strong that way... but with the slightest pressure, when you put your finger in the hole, it all collapsed flat and you could then enter the hole. And I thought, what a fantastic door... something so simple, but I had never seen or heard of it before... infinitely strong this way... but has no strength that way... and no hinges... nothing... just completely resistant all with some springy metal. Something that we could certainly duplicate, and I've always waited to see that pop up somewhere... that was going to be one of the clues to me that this information was leaking to the private sector... but I never did see that... cause I thought, that's the simplest thing... that'll pop up somewhere... but, anyway, that collapsed in and I was able to stick my head down and hang upside down and see how the amplifiers were positioned and... so however long that took. Q: And then you got on the airplane that night and went home. L: Right. Q: How did you feel when you were on the airplane after that day? L: Oh, that night... I kept... that's what really stuck in my mind... I kept replaying the event of mainly being in the craft itself, trying to remember... wondering why so much empty space... wondering what was on the upper level... just thinking how absolutely simple everything was and comparing it to systems that I'm familiar with... telephones looked more complicated than what was going on there... no buttons... no anything... tremendous amounts of power being generated, but there's no wiring... it was... it's a first approximation... do you know what that is in engineering?... Q: First iteration (sp?).... L: Yeah... it's the simplest cartoon drawing of how everything works and then the first approximation with all the technicalities to it... but it was a functioning first approximation... and it was just so simple... the way everything was laid out... that's really all I thought about... the other reports... I guess the technology had taken me so much because it was such an impression as compared to reading words... actually being there and facing it... that was what left an impression. Q: You couldn't tell anybody when you left there. L: No. Q: And you came back... L: No... that was one of those nights when I went for the drive... the big drive... Q: How far did you go? L: I went up to Tonapa(sp?) and back the other way... so... Q: Well, roughly what time did you leave... you got back probably what... eleven... one... something like that... L: Got back from where? From my drive? Q: No... from up at S4. L: No... I got back fairly early... I'd say about nine... nine-thirty... Q: Was your wife home when you came home? L: I don't remember. Q: You couldn't talk to anybody... you couldn't call anybody. L: No... and I did lay down for awhile... but was feeling just kind of too antsy and, just like I talked about in traffic, even though you can't do anything, you just want to progress somewhere... so maybe it was a way of releasing it... so I got in the car and just started driving up that way... I really don't know how far Tonapa is, but it's a long way... Q: Couple of hours... L: No... it's more than that... it's like four hours... Q: You drove four hours... L: Yeah... Q: And then you came back another four? L: Yeah, I came back... well, it was time to go to work... I stayed up all night and I never became tired and I always get tired when I drove... but I guess the adrenalin kept me going... Q: When you say go to work... that's not going back up... L: No... no, remember, I still had my other business running and I had told them up front, until I go on full time, I really can't cut that out. Q: Now... the other business... was that building the monitors... or was that the processing... L: The processing. I had hired someone... Jim's girlfriend, Shelley, was taking over the business, solely to run it for me as I worked up there... so, I called her on odd days and say, I'm going to work tomorrow... so could you run the photo business... so on and so forth... since I knew I would not be working the next day... in that morning I'd be running photos. Q: How many days... four days... three days went by before they called you up again and said, it's now 3:21... L: Yeah, something like that... again, that's on the calendar. Q: Remember what you felt like when you went back up there after that? L: When I went back, I was much more at ease with it and I was really excited because I had felt... I had the impression that... well, we went in to look around at that time, so maybe we were going to get to work in the craft. And, not so much in the lab, but we were going to actually be doing things in there and I was positive at one time that I was going to get to be in the thing when it was being flight tested, but that never occurred... Q: Did you ask anybody that? L: No... never... no... I didn't want to seem too anxious. Q: Dennis ask you how you felt or anything... did he ever say... what do you think about this? L: Ahh... I'm sure he did, though I can't recall specifically... I know Barry did on several occasions and... Q: Barry ever tell you what he thought about it? L: No. Q: These guys are really enigmas as far as what they really think and feel. What did they... they started to pull the hardware off and bring it into your lab? L: Well... it was off already... one of the amplifiers and the reactor... and from what I understood, the reactors were the same in all of the craft... which leads one to speculate did they all come from the same place... or someone was sub-contracting out reactors... Q: So now you're in the lab... which is probably what... a couple of tables and ah... L: It was actually fairly large... there was an area back further in the lab where that equipment was on... one of the amplifiers was laying on a table... the reactor was on a separate plate... Q: How large were those items? L: The amplifier form itself was about two feet in diameter and four feet long... the reactor was maybe eighteen inches... Q: So you went in there and the first assignment was... the identification of the fuel element? L: Right. That's where Barry showed me how the reactor operated and what it did when you put the field on it... Q: Barry... did you read at any time briefly files about specifically the technology behind the reactor or was your source largely Barry? L: Both. Q: Good... because when I was watching the video tape, where you're talking about the science involved in this... it was a very sophisticated exposition... as to how the hardware worked... so there were files... there was Barry... and it plugged into the science that you came evolved in with... L: If there hadn't been, I would have put a lot less credit in the other reports that I read. That's my only connection with the reports to reality... so, if that hadn't occurred, I'd have been very skeptical of the rest of the stuff I'd been reading. Other than the fact that it was just so strange... as if you couldn't say that about everything, but you become very comfortable with technology very fast... and, I don't know if people do that with everything, maybe they do, but technology is just the thing that I can think of most off the top of my head... as soon as you... take the FAX for instance... technology might not exist... no one knows what they are... but now they're available to everyone and after you use them for just a short while, they're absolutely indispensable... how can you get along without them. They demystify very fast... no matter what the device is or how big the system is... even the craft, as I started getting into it, it was no longer the ship of a deity... it was this is almost attainable by us... yes, it's advanced, but I can already understand it and I can almost envision duplicating this one day. Q: Tell me about a couple of the elements... that when you talk about almost attainable... because I'm going to call some of these things out... jet propulsion system... the guidance system... L: Guidance I know nothing about... Q: Okay. L: I only assume that that's what was going on in the top part of the craft and that's what these windows... they aren't really windows... but I always assumed that they were sensor rays of some sort... that wherever the craft was that's how it got its lock on where it was... whether it matched up stars or whatever the thing was looking at, but I think that's where the sensor ray was from here up was everything to do with navigation. Q: Okay. L: But I really don't know. Q: But the propulsion system looked like something to you that... L: It was fantastically advanced, but, once you basically understand what's going on... especially with the reactor, all these things... even today... you look at science fiction... Star Wars... death rays and laser guns and all that... the technology isn't that far away, the main thing in all of the exotic science fiction technology type weapons and things laid out... is power... it really is... that's the reason there's no hand-held ray guns... and things like that... because you don't have 10 megawatts available in the palm of your hand and there's absolutely no way to get it. It doesn't matter how inefficient the device is... as long as you have the power, you can overcome all of that. So that's why it all came back to the reactor... how you can have that much power there... after we kind of began to get a handle on how the reactor operated... oh, look, it's a cyclotron... in fact, it looks like one of the earlier cyclotrons made, which was a small thirteen inch, we assertained, essentially, what was in the bottom plate of that and here's the path off that comes up and reacts with the element... it's advanced, sure, it's nothing that small, nothing that powerful... but it's understandable... I guess it was kind of comforting that it was possible to... it's as if someone showed you a television set the size of the top of your thumb... no, we can't make it that small... but I understand how it works and eventually parts are going to get that small, so it's not amazing... it's a good job, but... it's not completely amazing... and it began to boil down to that level. Now, of course, I was concentrating on specific parts... Q: You disassembled it in the lab? L: Well, it only disassembled so far... there wasn't a whole lot we could take apart... but, yeah, what we could disassemble, we did. And, once you begin to understand the parts, it kind of gives you confidence in that... well, if we can understand this... we can do that... you could eventually see knowing what was going on... so it demystified it... but there was nothing to demystify everything else in the other reports... those were still a mystery and fantastic and there were still pictures of aliens that I'd yet to see... and reports on other aspects of the project that I didn't see... so that was still a mystery... so it began to divide. Q: So the fuel element... you saw that for the first time in the lab?
L: Yeah. Q: Tell me about that. L: That was when Barry was going to fire up the reactor... he kept it in a container... and took it out with a pair of tongs... it was triangular in shape and took the lid off the reactor and put the element... well, there's another cap that comes off, and put it in the little tower... replaced the cap and put the lid on and the reactor fired up. As soon as you put it (UNCLEAR), it fired up. And that was the first time I saw it. Course, he gave an explanation... this is how the thing runs... this is the fuel, as far as we know, and... they had much more fuel than that... whether it was in one of the craft or what, I don't know, but they had a lot more than was necessary to run the craft. They were very interested in possibly substituting something for that fuel. Not just finding out how that reactor worked... but duplicating it with earthly material. They wanted something simple... made out of stuff they had, essentially. END OF TAPE 5 -- SIDE B | | S4 - THE ROBERT LAZAR STORY TAPE 6 -- SIDE A Q: Questions L: Lazar Q: Bob, in the tape that I saw you talking about the science involved in the propulsion system... you mentioned a couple of lines about a superbomb. Is that information that you've read in files, or is that something that you deduced from the... L: Just general physics knowledge... just from being involved in nuclear weapons... look at the energy released in a nuclear bomb... I mean 99 percent of that energy... 100 percent of the energy released from an atomic explosion comes from 1 percent of the mass that we put in there... the rest of the mass is blown away and never gets into the reaction... so it's a very inefficient bomb... a lot of the energy is wasted in by products and other garbage that comes out of it... but here is... an anti-matter (?) reaction that's perfectly clean... perfectly efficient... a 100 percent efficient... imagine a device made utilizing that element... somehow... would release all the energy in it... would be millions of times more energy per given unit of matter than anything we've seen before... so it certainly presents a potential... excluding the crap... the alien... all the information... the fuel itself certainly has the potential to be converted into an awesome continent-destroying weapon. (MAJOR TAPE GLITCH) Q: The fuel went to Los Alamos? Some of the fuel went to Los Alamos? L: Yes. Q: Now... we began to talk yesterday about... L: Now, I do wonder if that's something to put in the movie or not... (MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON) L: At the time I had the accelerator set-up in this little lab I had... in fact I still have most of the pieces of it here... and I still have on tape that part of the expose where the camera, George is interviewing and we purposely put it in there, and it came in a very recognizable holder... and what I had done... in a large disc... and what I had done was scribe a target on it... and I had my accelerator set up and it was sitting in a holder at the end of the accelerator... almost as if to be a threat... and there was a few seconds shot of it on the news... there was nothing said... and all it was was just... this is where the missing 115 is... and it was... that was great to me. It was actually after that when Dennis called to have that meeting. As far as that entering the story anywhere... it entered there and then disappeared. Q: Well, we'll take a look at it... whether it's important to the story or not today, I'm not sure. When you were talking about all these things... you were polygraphed... was that George Knapp that arranged for that? L: Umm hmm. Yeah, he said to me... will you take a polygraph... I said sure. Interestingly... there were two polygraphs taken. The first one, George thought a lot of this was going to be criticized and he wanted to get a guy that no one could possibly say he would be in cahoots with... so he found this polygraph examiner that, I don't remember the story exactly, but used to always hit on his girlfriends... who he truly hated... so no one could really say... they could have ever worked together... the guy had been watching, unfortunately, all the reports on TV and the first thing he said to me, after hooking me up, now this is not a polygraph guy like you would think... very... didn't seem like an ex-cop or something like that... so the first thing he said to me, when I sat down, after he strapped me in, he said, you are my ticket to the Donahue Show. And I knew, this was not going well... because after that he said... well, the results look good, and stuff like that... and then he started mentioning things like that to me... like, if we could go on and do this on a national level.. I said, I am not going to... you are out of your mind. I said, we came down here because George said you'd be the guy... absolutely not... I'm not even talking in your favor as far as anything's concerned... you can just forget about it... so after that, the guy said, well, he could be relaying information that he heard from someone that he absolutely believes more than anything in the world... so on and so forth, so he told George... so I'm not standing up for anybody or anything... get the hell out of here. So George... and I told George what the guy said, and he said, all right... we're going to find some guy... and they did... they found an ex-cop from California... a number one polygraph guy and the guy he trained with is like the Polygraph Association President, whatever it is... that's in Arizona... so unlike the thirty-second talk I had with the guy, he sat down and had a two and a half hour quiz before that... and then an hour long polygraph... and then a multi-hour thing after that... which completely exhausted me... and his results were... you know, I absolutely was telling essentially what I believed was the truth... he then went and sent the results off to his superior, who also concurred, and that was the end of the polygraph thing. Q: Great. We've covered a lot of ground here today. I just asked Bob, what.. is it... L: Tracy... Q: Tracy... what Tracy's attitude was when they were driving up to see the testflights on Wednesday nights... L: She was never serious, I mean, she was always... said everything was a laugh... so you could never tell how serious she was. You know what I'm talking about... there are always people like that... She believed it... I have no doubt about that... but it wasn't... she never took a real serious look at anything... she was very much... but she was young... she was about nineteen years old... so I should find that tape of that particular day... from the two or three seconds you might get an idea... Q: That would be great... L: How she acts. Q: That would be great... did your marriage end during this time? L: Yeah. Q: Was it before the brothel hearing or after? L: Oh, way before. Q: Was it before or after George Knapp's expose? L: Before. But after the first time I went on with George. And, in us discussing it, well, why didn't all this work out and stuff like that... she did tell me that the UFO stuff did play a big part because of all the oppression and whatnot and what was going on with people around and not knowing what was going on and also fear... she really became afraid of everything. Q: She packed and left. L: Yeah. Q: Were you in this house? L: Umm hmm. It's understandable to some point (?).... Q: It must have been terribly difficult for both of you. Terribly difficult. L: There was just far too much happening at one time... it was unbelievable... Q: Did you ever feel like you were losing your... L: This is bringing back little memories that I never remember now... shortly... right before that time, we had gone to a marriage counselor that we saw, I think, a total of two times. We went the first time and started explaining this and he said, boy, you guys have a lot of problems, but we never told him about the UFO stuff and, it was like the last good laugh we had together, the second time we went we kind of unloaded on him and said this is everything that's going on and he sat there and disgested it and he said, these people are after you... and flying saucers... and you're seeing another guy... and he said, I really don't think you guys should come back again. And we laughed all the way home about that... and that was great... that was really great... to have a counselor tell you to get out... (LAUGHTER) L: But I interrupted you... Q: No... that's... listen... little stories like that are great... I mean they're great... L: I can't remember his name, but that was something... Q: This is the tape? L: This is the... this is probably a Desert Blast tape. Q: What do the debunkers say about your motivation for all of this? I'm sure they're lining up three deep and they... L: They are... but they're genuinely confused because I'm not trying to compete with them for books, or movies... or not movies... they never did see any financial reason to do it. I hate publicity and going on TV or being interviewed more than anything. So they didn't see any motive to become a star... and what has always driven them crazy is because they haven't been able to pin down anything and say, well, ahh hah. That's what he's after. Though they went after some strange things... but most of it was that I wouldn't... the big organization MUFON, which considers themselves the UFO clearing house, if someone has a sighting... they should be told and they will determine whether this is true or false. Q: MUFON stands for... L: The Mutual UFO Network... and they have members all over the world now. Now, I grouped all the UFO people as crazy... and I wouldn't talk to them or give them an interview and a lot of their original dissention was because they basically didn't have the whole story and I wasn't about to tell them and they... as the psychological report says, I respond to authority by resisting it... and that is absolutely so true and if they just wouldn't have started off on the wrong foot... they came in as, more along the lines of, we demand the following information from you. And, of course, my response is... you're not getting any information ever, period. In fact, that's it. So, they had to assume lots of things and that's why they originally came up with... things we did have proof for... they said, that's impossible for him to have done this because... but, so a lot of it was due to the fact that they really didn't have much information and, as the story got around and was repeated and retold, and every... whether it's in a book, or a TV show or something... wherever the story is retold... there is consistantly always two or three things that are completely wrong in it. And with that... they occasionally say, ah ha!... the story's changing or things they still don't have information about... but mainly it's because they just don't have the entire story. No one has really sat down with them and got into the fine points of everything. Q: That's your jet... I missed that... your jet car. L: I'll just move ahead. Q: Bob, we can come back to that... I was fascinated by the image of your jet car... is the jet car on this next segment also? L: Yeah. Q: Great. (MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON) Q: Bonkers... BUFON... umm... L: Mainly it was because they didn't have much information. And they would concentrate on different little aspects of the story that they couldn't confirm or were frustrated with and (VIDEO TAPE PLAYS IN B.G.) (MACHINE TURNED OFF AND BACK ON AND THE CALENDAR DAY BY DAY -- AUGUST '88 THROUGH AUGUST '89 BEGINS AS A SEPARATE FILE.)
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